CIMA president Alfred Ramosedi, FCMA, CGMA, detailed the competencies that finance professionals need to navigate AI and how to transform “suffering” into growth and opportunity.
Ramosedi, also the co-chair of the Association of International Certified Professional Accountants and the CEO of Bayport Financial Services, joined the FM podcast to discuss the skills management accountants should prioritise, the core values and lessons that shaped him as a leader, and how different generations can work together to progress the finance function.
In the conversation, Ramosedi emphasised the importance of “suffering properly” and what he means by that. He also discussed future-proofing his company’s business model during a time of disruption and why AI is changing the role of finance — not replacing finance professionals.
“Don’t suffer and then you get through the suffering and there’s nothing positive that you can show for it,” Ramosedi said. “If you suffer, suffer properly, and learn from it and do something.”
What you’ll learn from this episode:
- Three emerging trends management accountants need to prepare for.
- Why finance professionals can’t “jump to AI” without first learning technical skills.
- The value of reverse mentoring as emerging technologies take hold.
- Ramosedi’s recounting of a “humble” upbringing and his motto related to personal responsibility.
- Lessons from the COVID-19 pandemic that helped Ramosedi transform disruption into opportunity.
- Why AI will not replace people.
Play the episode below or read the edited transcript:
— To comment on this episode or to suggest an idea for another episode, contact Steph Brown at Stephanie.Brown@aicpa-cima.com.
Transcript
Steph Brown: Hi, listeners. Welcome to the FM podcast. I’m Steph Brown. On this special episode, I’m joined by new CIMA president and Association co-chair Alfred Ramosedi. Last year, Alfred joined the podcast to discuss return-to-work policies, flexible working, and how leaders can drive team productivity.
Today, we’ll be exploring how leaders can prepare for disruption, key skills for navigating AI, and tips for transforming uncertainty into opportunity.
Welcome back, Alfred. It’s great to have you on the podcast again.
Alfred Ramosedi: Thank you. I can’t believe it’s a year ago that we were talking about work-from-home practices, what we can do when you’re back in the office, how we integrate. It really has been a whirlwind year.
Brown: I know it doesn’t feel like a year. It’s been so busy, but it’s great to speak to you again.
In your inaugural speech, you said that management accounting is a very forward-looking profession. Looking ahead, what are two or three emerging trends that management accountants need to prepare for now?
Ramosedi: Steph, management accounting has always been grounded in doing forecasts, taking ideas, converting them into what it means for the business now [and] into the future. So, we’ve always been thinking about what should happen next. We are people who anticipate things. When technology comes, changes come, we always think about what we should be doing and what we should adapt for and anticipate.
There are three things that I see as coming down the road that we should be thinking about and actually take advantage of. One is the rise of artificial intelligence and higher automation levels that we can see in our companies. The challenge here is that this is not going to replace people, but it’s going to free up our members to do high-value things around advice, which is what we are best suited for as management accountants.
The second one is we now need more professional judgement, ethics, and trust embedded in what we’re doing going forward. Because what we have seen in the early stages of technology, particularly what is being produced by artificial intelligence, is that if you don’t test it, those answers can actually lead you astray. Some people say that sometimes it gets a bit delirious and it dreams stuff, and people don’t know how to interpret that. So that’s what we’ll be expecting as a trend going forward.
And then finally, uncertainty has always been there. We know about it, but it’s going to be increasingly more. Which means that we are now going to be needing, as a trend, people that can actually guide a lot more than just produce things.
Brown: In your mind, what are two or three skills that can help finance professionals navigate those challenges — particularly AI — and why are they important?
Ramosedi: I see three skills, but core to all the skills, I do still see that the technical capabilities or the competencies that make you who you are as a management accountant, as a professional — those still remain. You cannot jump that.
You cannot jump to technology and learn AI and not learn the technical. The reason for this is that what we’re going to be needing more is root-cause analysis to analyse and integrate problems going forward.
Three on top of this one. One is I do see people now being expected to apply sound judgement and critical thinking. Not cynicism, but critical thinking as in, is this the only way? Is this the best way? Is this the best answer? Is there an alternative? So, we’re expecting that instead of saying, “Here’s an answer. Implement.”
Second one is curiosity. This is going to create so many opportunities for us. We’re going to be able to analyse a lot. If you’re not curious, you’re not going to be able to take advantage of the technology or artificial intelligence. I have seen reports that come with a blend of departments, not just one department brought together, and the only way I can actually decipher what comes out is by being curious. What if? What happens?
And finally, ability to communicate and communicate value creation. So those are the three skills I see coming out. Sound judgement and critical thinking, curiosity and being able to adapt, and finally being able to communicate quite clearly and influence people.
Brown: Two key attributes you highlighted in a recent interview you did with FM were the ability to interpret data and communicate it in a simple way. When did those skills really start to grow for you and what helped you get there?
Ramosedi: One of the things I do tell people is that having done CIMA in my life changed my life completely. I was this guy who was just a normal accountant working on a mine before I moved to a financial services company. And having done CIMA, that’s where the change started. Because CIMA doesn’t just emphasise producing numbers. CIMA says you produce the numbers, don’t be just happy with them. Communicate the numbers but finally integrate those numbers into the decision-making for the business to grow.
That’s how it changed for me. I’ll give you an example. I grew up in management accounting. Then eventually, as people will know, I’m now the CEO of a financial services company. I’ve been running it since 2017, just shy of 10 years now. And one of the things that we have found is if you are going to be able to communicate to people, you must communicate in their language.
One of the ways in our company that we always hear people talk about bad debts is using very serious terms which are very technical to credit departments, who calculate the bad debts in the company. For example, they will use a word like “contractual delinquency” after a client has missed four months. That means nothing to people. But when you come and you want to communicate to people, it’s about what have we written off. That now tells you what the company has done.
So, when we were turning our company around, we were trying to communicate using these terms that were credit, and people did not get what our vision was. But eventually when we told people that when you give advice to clients and you sign a new product, be careful that you’re not giving bad advice because we’ll end up making high write-offs from our balance sheet.
Finally, people got it. Yes, we still talk contractual delinquency losses. But to people, they don’t have to know that. It’s about translating it to what people know and can grasp on the ground.
Brown: But I suppose also skills alone are not enough. In your speech, you said that there were values that shaped you long before you entered the profession. What were those values and how did they shape you as a leader?
Ramosedi: I grew up in an environment that’s very humble. And when you grow up in an environment that’s very humble, the first thing that you get taught are around the skills, the values, and staying true to yourself. You learn that all the time because your family just appreciates that. You don’t have a lot to do. Your biggest asset is being yourself.
There were four things that really [made me] understand and get on the journey. And all over it is around honesty. Being honest to yourself, being honest to the world, and being honest to the work that you do. That helps a lot. You need to start with that. Look at yourself and say, “This is what I want to do.”
And the first value that I learned was about integrity. Doing the right thing, even if nobody is there to see you. That for me is integrity. And you’re not doing it for people. Do it for yourself. And doing it right is quite important.
Honesty. Speak the truth in such a way that you would accept somebody who will tell you the truth. You would not be wanting to leave a room, and someone tells something that is dishonest, that you know that is going to lead you down the wrong path. You will get very upset. So, speak the truth and be honest all the time.
Always remember to be generous. The world and other people have supported you to be where you are. When you go to a school, there’s a team of people that contributed to that. Your mother, your father, your family. But also, your schoolmates at school. Sometimes you battle something, they help you, maybe once, maybe twice. Your teachers and other support people.
Remember that they’re also giving back. They didn’t want anything in return from you. So, generosity is about acknowledging that and that you can also help others going forward. Giving back, mentoring, and creating a platform to share information with other people.
And personal responsibility. I have a motto, Steph, that I’ve always grown up with, which is, “If it is to be, it’s up to me.” That teaches you personal responsibility and accountability. Don’t look outside when something has to be solved. You can do it and make it yourself. And every time I do something, I always try and start with myself first before I look at the others.
Brown: Thank you for sharing that with listeners.
On emerging technologies, for members entering or returning to the workforce, how they learn their craft might be different from how other finance professionals, even leaders, developed their skill set. How can finance leaders make it easier for those groups to learn from each other?
Ramosedi: The simplest one in companies that people can relate to is that people underestimate the impact of mentoring. And I think companies must actually now try and fast-track and highlight the importance of mentoring.
But in this instance, because we are now talking more individualised issues, is the interaction between people must be managed. My example in the company, I always say, “Spend a lot of time making sure that there’s a match between someone who’s a mentor and the protégé.” So, mentoring is the first one that I think companies can look at.
The second one that people underestimate and we haven’t invested a lot of time in is simulation. It helps honestly to develop ways in which people can show simulation and share scenarios with other people and companies. So, if companies and other people can implement and try, because a lot of people have not lived through scenarios. Nobody had lived through the COVID era. People don’t know what happened there and how we survived. The only way to do that is being able to have a simulation.
Have reverse mentoring. So, I sit here, I did not go through a lot of these digital technologies. I’m battling through this using my phone for work purposes because I’m not used to that. I’m used to not even using a laptop. I was using paper all the time. The people who know this are the youngsters. So instead of me mentoring them, reverse mentoring is now something that we can implement.
And I think that will actually give them a lot of comfort that they can add value. Imagine a young person, 20 years old, two years in a company, coming to mentor the CEO on how to take advantage of the digital technologies and show him and showcase these things.
And then also there are people with like-minded ideas who only want to be interested in marketing, branding, or different topics. So, communities of practice are something that we can create. I love this because on the CIMA website, we have created an Engage platform where people with like-minded ideas can create forums where they can go share ideas across the world. Technology allows you to do this thing.
The last one is being able to match people across generations. So, take people who knew how to do a trial balance by hand, general ledger by hand, in 1985, and take people who are doing the trial balance using new software and advanced technologies in 2017. Map them together, and I can tell you the information that will be shared there will be powerful and make it stronger for the workforce.
Brown: Thank you. That’s really interesting, especially the reverse mentoring aspect to it and how teams can work more in unison with that information that they both have to share with each other.
You mentioned the unprecedented nature of COVID. In an interview with FM, you mentioned that the COVID-19 pandemic forced you to adapt very quickly as a leader and even create a new business model during that time. How did the lessons learned then apply to your ability to handle disruption?
Ramosedi: It re-emphasised for me that even through chaos, there could be opportunity. Look for opportunities.
The second one is that please never let a crisis that makes you go through pain — don’t go through the pain of crisis and let it [go] to waste. Don’t suffer and then you get through the suffering and there’s nothing positive that you can show for it. If you suffer, suffer properly, and learn from it and do something. So don’t let the crisis go to waste.
Go for it because there’s nothing to lose. It’s tough, COVID showed us. We couldn’t even come to work for three months. We couldn’t look at that stuff for three months. People were anxious. Everybody was anxious. Do not get out of that when you are so anxious and have got PTSD and you don’t have anything to show for growth. That’s not how we operate, us here.
Do not let any uncertainty leave you fearful or avoid things. In fact, uncertainty for most people is where you can see the opportunities. And a lot of organisations, particularly my organisation, adapted through COVID. The model changed in that what we saw is there was an opportunity to help a few customers reduce their repayments on their loans back to our company. We were hand-holding those customers, educating them.
What we found is that when you do negotiations for customers on their loans and you hand-hold them and you educate them, they end up being better payers at 99% than anybody else. So, our company then ended up implementing an educational model. We now have customers that are paying 95% better than they have ever done before. Just because we saw that through COVID, when you work with them, they become loyal to you because they think you have their best interest in their area.
Last thing also here is that the role of finance was critical. It all comes together in finance, Steph. Everything that happens in a company. You can start something in human resources; you can start something in the property division. The actions of those people all end up [having an] impact on finance at the bottom line of the company. And the role of finance was quadrupled in terms of importance throughout this period. And we now know whenever we do something, we have to have a finance person in a project before we even start, in any process, in any design of new ideas.
Brown: I really loved your quote there. “If you’re going to suffer, suffer properly.” And it’s humorous, but I guess it’s really poignant and true as well. If you’ve been through a lot, you might as well try and make the most out of it.
Ramosedi: It’s true. You can’t tell me that you were not worried. Everybody was worried. So, you know for a fact that even though Alfred sounds a bit as if he was in control, he was worried proper during that time. He was stressing for his company, and he wanted things to happen. But he did not let that go to waste.
Brown: Transforming uncertainty into opportunities is, I guess, part of your leadership ethos. In a fast-paced environment though, what advice would you give members struggling to manage competing business priorities?
Ramosedi: So, my sense is that at any given point in time, there will be a thousand opportunities; a million opportunities. If you read a newspaper now, it will tell you about these ideas. You’ll see these ideas, you’ll see that. But your span of control or your span of focus will only allow you to implement two or three ideas, not more than five. Because two or three ideas will require you to interact with, closest to you, 10 people. Those 10 people must go interact with 100 people. Those 100 people must go interact with a thousand people.
If you’re going to implement 10 ideas, you can imagine the multiplier effect of what circle of influence you have to [have] at any point in time to drive this to succeed. You are not going to implement one of those 10 properly. But if you chose two and you bet on these two and know how to prioritise these two, you will be able to follow up on them when they go off-track, influence them back, check what’s going on, and know what we need to do.
So, that’s the first thing. Reduce and be tough-minded on reducing your priorities, even with your teams, to two things. What is important for most people is knowing exactly what to do and being able to bet on one idea. And in organisations, what you will see is that they actually lack clarity of fewer things to be done, not multiple things that we hope will succeed.
Second one is focus on outcomes. We normally focus on activities. Focus on where are we at, what are the milestones, what are we delivering? And communicate those to people there.
And linked to No. 1, prioritise [value]. And you also can hear it from people. Normally when you go into an organisation, when you communicate to people, they will tell you, “We don’t know where we’re at with the outcomes of our sales. We don’t know where we’re at with the outcomes of [the projects] we have delivered.”
So, communicate those things upfront when you communicate to them and then go into the activities later. Focus on the outcomes because we have delivered more from ambition around what we have achieved, not necessarily what we are running around doing.
And then apply judgement. And judgement is also about trying to be objective. So being objective is also not listening to yourself. Sometimes we like listening to our voices as people. It’s nice. We’re comfortable with that. We’ve spoken to ourselves until [the age we are] now, some plus 50. So, this guy here has been my friend for 50 years. It’s easy. I can talk to him. He talks in my language. But listening to other people with a different perspective strengthens what you know, what they know. And it’s important to create that objectivity and not just come with your own analysis.
Try and become a trusted adviser is my last advice. And being a trusted adviser is also about admitting mistakes. It’s OK to go to people and say, “We chose two, one is not working. We tried to evaluate it, it’s wasting our time, let’s stop. But let me get your input.” Being a trusted adviser is that person who goes back, gives feedback, and accepts that things may not go your way.
Brown: Thank you so much for being on the podcast, Alfred.
Is there anything that we haven’t touched on about the future of the profession that you think is really important to add into this?
Ramosedi: The last thing I want to talk about is that it’s always a human in the lead. We worry about technology, and yet we forget that the people that have created technology is us. The people that have designed the technology is us. So, a human is there, always in the lead.
There are maybe three things I want to leave people with. AI, or any technology that’s going to come that does whatever it does, is not going to be held accountable. It’s not going to decide. It’s not going to go to the board and say to the board, “I have analysed this data, so the board should sell this company.” It’s not going to do that. It’s going to just give you an answer. And [if] that is not sold or if that leads to a loss, nobody’s going to fire that AI. No, [it’s] the human that has to take that, interpret it, and decide it for the board.
Roles are replaced, but people are not. So yes, the first thing we’re seeing is about automation. It’s about taking roles that can be automated, which are more task-related, but the person who actually moves up the ladder to the next rank is not going to be replaced because we still need someone who’s going to interpret those things. It’s about adapting, not necessarily thinking that yourself will be replaced in the company.
And then finally, uncertainty has always been here, colleagues and teams. For as long as I’ve been around, there was always a disruption. So, we were using paper. We were using hands to add. And then we used the calculator. And they said, “No, we’re going to need only two accountants.” And then we were using paper and then somebody came along and said, “Let’s implement spreadsheets.” So, we then had Microsoft Excel and these things popped up along [the way]. And they said, “No, they will do away with us.”
We were storing things in disks back in our days, and it needed multiple people to maintain them. And databases were introduced and they said, “People are going to be replaced.” And then we now have the websites. We said the data that’s coming out of the website is going to replace Alfred because now we can ask this thing, it’s going to give us data.
Financial crises came, interrupted models. Business models were interrupted. We had wars that interrupt supply chains, etc, throughout the period that I’ve been entrusted here. And yet we’re still here, and yet people are still around.
Uncertainty is there. And uncertainty also creates an opportunity when it disrupts because then there’s a need for something else that is created through that disruption.
Brown: Thank you so much for taking the time to share your insights and knowledge with FM. It’s been great to speak to you again. Thank you, Alfred.
Ramosedi: Thank you so much, Steph. Thank you. I really appreciated and enjoyed this discussion.
