Steve Roberts, a psychotherapist, counsellor, and life coach, spoke last year at UK & Ireland ENGAGE. In this podcast conversation, he highlights key techniques for engaging workforces, how to resolve conflicts more effectively, and the impact increased digital communication has had on the way we interpret information.
Roberts also shares one fundamental practice that can help professionals prepare for future challenges without losing their principles.
What you’ll learn from this episode:
- Three factors that can influence the way we engage with peers.
- Some pressures that can lead to burnout for workforces.
- Why win-win models are the only sustainable position for leaders.
- The story of the Zen master and how it can inform a better approach to learning.
- An acronym for developing a more understanding approach to conflict resolution.
- How managers can become “practical psychologists”.
- One essential habit for creating a value-centred approach to personal development.
Play the episode below or read the edited transcript:
— To comment on this episode or to suggest an idea for another episode, contact Steph Brown at Stephanie.Brown@aicpa-cima.com.
Transcript
Steph Brown: Hi, listeners. Welcome back to the FM podcast for another episode recorded live from UK & Ireland ENGAGE. I’m Steph Brown. On this episode, I’m joined by Steve Roberts to discuss his session, “The Habits of Influential People”.
Steve is a psychotherapist, counsellor, and life coach with extensive experience in training and coaching clients to help them improve their performance at work. We’ll be discussing the difficulties professionals can come across in day-to-day interactions, what it means to hold influence and authority, and several ways employees can improve their approach when engaging with peers.
Steve will also share some of the habits that have aided his own personal and professional development.
Here’s the conversation with Steve:
I’m eager to dive straight into this topic because I guess to get into a position of influence we first need to have people who believe and have trust in the messages we’re trying to convey. This could be a challenge for professionals who are struggling to engage with their peers. In your experience, what are some common challenges people face when interacting with others in the workplace?
Steve Roberts: Well, the number one challenge that I see, Steph, today is not just in the workplace, but in all areas of life, is determined by the level of psychological strength or emotional fitness that we have as individuals. Now, there are patterns that make people emotionally unfit. Patterns that make people frustrated, depressed, angry. Patterns that make them feel sorry for themselves. But there are also patterns that make people compassionate, playful, and emotionally strong.
We all buy into this belief that emotions just happen. My experience has taught me that we do emotions. There is a pattern to the way we create our own experiences. If we take these three components and look at these three components, we can start to see how we’re creating our own version of reality and how we’re creating our own internal states. The three components are mental focus. Whatever I focus on — whether it’s reality in actuality or not — I will feel it as if it was happening.
The subconscious part of the brain will treat what we’re thinking about as if it was happening for real. We can start to get a sense of how we can get into some difficulties with that. For example, in cases of PTSD, when a client has a flashback, they actually revisit the memory that traumatised them in the initial event. The subconscious treats it as if they were back there in that event. Time is irrelevant in that situation. That’s mental focus.
Then we have language patterns. Whatever we tell ourselves about what we’re focusing on will create meaning, and from that meaning we will create an emotion.
Then the third element is physiology, a fancy word for how we use our bodies. The way we breathe, our muscular tension in the body, but also in the facial muscles as well — the tension around the eyes. The way we use our bodies will directly influence the way we feel.
The mind and the body are intrinsically linked. What we do with the body directly influences the mind, and what we do with the mind directly influences the body. Understanding these patterns can enable us to develop a sense of resilience and resourcefulness. We can be a better version of ourselves by looking at the patterns that [are] creating the problem and then changing those patterns.
Brown: It sounds like the more we become aware of unhealthful or unhealthy patterns, the more awareness we have about where we’re going wrong professionally and possibly in our personal lives as well.
Roberts: Absolutely. It’s not just about what we do professionally. It tips into our personal lives as well.
Then, the next challenge I see, Steph, is that people these days are being subjected to more and more pressure — working longer hours for the same pay or sometimes a reduction in pay, not being allowed to take sick leave, or not being allowed to take holidays because we’re too busy. One of the common things I hear is, “Well, I have accrued all this leave, but I’m not allowed to take it because the demands are just too much.”
What I start to see then is the pressure that people are under starts to move into stress. Pressure to a degree is not necessarily a bad thing. We need an element of pressure to enable us to perform. Problems occur when that pressure tips into stress, and then our intended performance is one thing, but our actual performance is far less than our expectations, and other people start to see that shift and that decline in our effectiveness.
If it’s not managed and we continue staying in that stressed situation, then there is a serious chance that we could have a breakdown. That takes a lot to recover from. That’s where everything just shuts down. It’s like the breaker switch goes and the lights go out. Now I’ve got no ability to function at that point. Sometimes people are admitted to hospital as a result of that. It does take more in-depth work to get a person back from that. I always say an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.
Brown: That’s a really interesting perspective leading into people working themselves into burnout. What tactics can be helpful for leaders trying to maintain a sense of influence and authority in their jobs without tipping over into that breaking point?
Roberts: Delegation really is the key to leadership. Don’t micromanage people; they hate that. Give your staff tasks and roles to follow through on, but don’t micromanage them. Let them hold themselves accountable for delivering on that. That will empower them.
If you micromanage them, they’re going to resent that. I remember a case just a couple of weeks ago, actually, I was called in to do some mediation between a manager and a team member. The manager was micromanaging this team member and getting involved in things that, really, he shouldn’t be getting involved in. Trust the expertise of your staff.
Influence is less about control, and it’s more about consistency. It’s about leading by example and holding ourselves accountable to higher standards. I’m here for you, but are you here for yourself? So, yes, the organisation has a responsibility for their staff, but it’s a two-way thing. Staff has a responsibility for themselves as well. I think that’s important. We should all take responsibility for the things we can do something about and that’s managing our own wellbeing, not just mentally but physically as well.
I think adopting a calm presence rather than dominance. I think having a win-win mindset is important, too. We have four options in which we can interact. We can operate from a win-win perspective. We can operate from a win-lose perspective. Win-win is it’s good for you, but it’s good for me. There’s something in this for both of us. Then we’ve got win-lose. Win-lose is, well, I get mine, but it comes at your expense. Then we’ve got lose-win. That is, well, I’ll sacrifice myself for the good of everybody else, and they spend a lifetime pleasing others. Any position such as win-lose or lose-win will ultimately lead to lose-lose, and that’s where everything just breaks down.
It’s a universal principle that I constantly see getting broken. Stephen Karpman’s work when he talks about the “drama triangle”. When the drama triangle is in play, and again, I see this as one of the challenges in the workplace, we can adopt the position of being the persecutor. We can attribute that to the win-lose position. It’s always somebody else’s fault, always pointing the finger, being very judgmental and accusatory, quite an aggressive position. Then we’ve got the rescuer. The rescuer is in the position of lose-win, and that is sacrificing themselves for the good of others.
But where this all comes together at the victim point is at lose-lose. The persecutor and the rescuer will ultimately end up as victims. A rescuer can become a persecutor because they get fed up trying to rescue people and they’re not taking on board the advice, and then they start pointing the finger: “After all I’ve done for you, you just do not appreciate me.” That kind of approach all lead to victim.
It’s got to be win-win or no deal. As leaders, we’ve got to understand that keeping people in a lose-win position, ultimately, you’re going to burn that person out. It’s not sustainable. We all understand there’s going to be times when we need to place ourselves in that lose-win. There’s some deadline-driven projects here, we’ve got to do the extra mile, and people are OK with that. But we shouldn’t live there.
Brown: For professionals looking to move into middle management or leadership, it could be quite easy to fall into those archetypes. What do they need to start thinking about to improve the way they communicate to avoid those traps?
Roberts: Be aware of this concept of the drama triangle. Take responsibility for the things that we can do something about. That’s our own attitudes, our own behaviours, how we respond to other people. Shift the paradigm. What I mean by that is from being in a reactive state to being in a proactive state. Proactive people choose their responses very thoughtfully and very wisely. Instead of asking the question, what am I asking of this situation? Ask yourself, what is this situation asking of me? What could I do more of?
Instead of trying to control everything that’s going out in the world in front of me. I’ve got no control over that. I’ve only got influence over that, and the best way to influence what’s going on in that world around me is to begin with myself. Start to become a person of influence, be principle-centred. A person that focuses on solutions, that goes the extra mile, that has a level of awareness in regards to how their words, their body language, and their energy affects other people. I would also encourage people to empty their cup so you can be open and receptive to new ways of doing things.
This reminds me of a story of the Zen master. The academic wants to learn about Zen, so he goes to the Zen master. The academic starts to tell the Zen master all of the things that he knows about Zen, and he’s going on and on and on, and the Zen master started to get a little bit frustrated by this. He said to the academic, “Would you like tea?” The academic goes, “Yes, I’ll have tea.” The Zen master starts to pour the tea, and the cup starts to fill. But the Zen master keeps pouring, and now the cup is overflowing till the academic can no longer contain himself and says, “Stop it, man! What are you doing? The cup is full.” The Zen master turns to him and says, “As is yours, and you can’t possibly learn Zen until you empty your cup.”
I really like that story, and I think we can use that as a metaphor for life. Approach every situation as a beginner, and then you’re open to new learning and new ideas. I would also suggest challenging the status quo. Just because we’ve always done it this way doesn’t mean that that’s the best way. Challenge the way we’ve done things.
We need to have deep awareness and presence. What I would say about presence is if you’re in the room, be in the room. Give the person you’re with your whole, undivided attention to the exclusion of everything else. Am I getting the response that I would like from that individual? If I’m not, what do I need to change about my words, my voice cues, my voice volume, my body language? Because we know the words account for a small percentage of the meaning. What counts more is how we say it and what our bodies are saying. Tidying up that communication as well, I think is crucial.
Brown: I think if we all closed our eyes and thought of an influential person, we’d picture world leaders, politicians, entrepreneurs that are on stage speaking to you. But a lot of time, it’s about being really receptive to other people’s experiences.
Roberts: Absolutely. Be prepared not just to focus on influencing others, but be accepting of being influenced by others in return. That way, our energies can ebb and flow, and we can become more connected. We can become more present. And we can develop a deeper sense of understanding.
Brown: As you said, we can’t get stuck and not progress and not consider change when we need to. In this profession, change is inevitable, especially on the digital front. In your opinion, though, how has our relationship with digital communication, especially in the workplace, affected the way that we engage with other people?
Roberts: As a result of digital communication, I think efficiency has increased, but I think that’s come at the expense of effective communication. We’re more hyperconnected than ever before, but we’ve become more interpersonally distant. Often emails and messages are misinterpreted because we’re only getting the words. We’re not getting the voice cues; we’re not getting the body language.
This taps into [Albert] Mehrabian’s research, psychologist in the ’60s. The study was basically [that] the words account for a smaller meaning of the communication than the voice cues and our nonverbal communication. Our body language speaks far more than that. Of course, when we’re communicating through emails and messages and even phone calls, you’re only getting half the message.
That’s why they can be easily misinterpreted because you’re just getting a small percentage of the meaning. Depending on what state we’re in, when we receive that communication, that can completely change the meaning of that communication. One of the phrases I hear often, “I got this email the other day, Steve, and it was so harsh.” When I looked at it, it wasn’t harsh at all. It was just straight to the point.
But that was a reflection of the state that person was in when they read that. It changes the meaning. See, we don’t see the world as it is, we see the world as we are based upon our emotional states. The information we receive externally accounts for about 20% of what gets created as our perception. A massive 80% is already inside of us based on our past experiences. We get 20% externally, 80% internally, which is stored in our emotional brain centres.
That information is put together in a structure in the brain called the lateral geniculate body, and that goes to create our perception. We’ve all seen those slides that go around on social media. Famous one was the wedding dress, is it blue or is it pink? People have seen different things. That just demonstrates how fragile our perceptions are.
But understanding that as well can enable us again to be more effective and more influential. Take time to have face-to-face communication, use video calls for complex discussions, express appreciation personally. Remember: It’s not what we say, it’s how we say it. We must strive to humanise digital communication wherever possible.
Brown: I’d like to take a slight tangent here and discuss your background in the police service. What did that career teach you in respect to both approaching and resolving conflict?
Roberts: Adopting a calm presence with respectful listening is crucially important, and an acronym that can enable us to remember some of these qualities is LEAPS. LEAPS I got from a book called Verbal Judo. The author was [George J.] Thompson. What LEAPS is an acronym for is listen actively. We spoke about presence, give that person presence.
That’s like giving them psychological air. Irrespective of whether they’re irate [or] angry, they’re trying to communicate. Try and attribute a positive intention behind that person’s behaviour. Ultimately, what that person is trying to do, and not in all cases but in most cases, they’re trying to get their needs met. They’re trying to be heard. Number one: Listen actively.
The E in LEAPS: empathy. Empathy has Latin and Greek roots, and that is to see through the eyes of the other. To metaphorically place yourself in that person’s position and to see it through their eyes. Empathy is one of the most powerful words in the English language. It’s not sympathy, and it’s not agreeing. It’s to see it from their perspective, and then you start to feel it from their perspective as well. We have these wonderful things called mirror neurons. We tend to mirror a person’s nonverbal communication as they are in front of us. Now, I’m not saying if a person is angry, you should mirror that. But, with calm presence, we can lead that to change with the way we’re coming across.
A stands for ask questions. Even though a person is angry, asking the right questions can let them know that you’re listening. The best questions usually to ask are open questions. What, where, why, when, who, and how will keep that person engaged and keep them communicating. Because even though a person may be angry, they’re not necessarily exhibiting danger signs at that point. These are warning signs. Anger is a tool that some people use for getting their needs met.
The P stands for paraphrase or parrot phrase. Repeat back to them what they’ve just said to you, so it’s your words, but it’s their meaning. This makes people become better listeners because they will stop to listen to what you’ve got to say now to see if you have been listening and to see if you understand. Don’t worry too much if you get it wrong at this point, that’s fine. They will clarify that for you.
Then the S stands for summarise. Always keep it brief when we summarise. Summarise what that person has been saying and then offer choices wherever possible.
The desire is to meet one or more six needs. The six needs, certainty. We all need a level of certainty. I guess certainty has been able to have pleasure and avoid painful situations. If we’re certain about everything, life would get pretty boring, so we also need some variety. Variety is about doing different things, excitement, passion, change. Sometimes people have difficulty with change. Some people love change. So, we’re all wired differently.
Then we need significance. Significance is all about feeling special, unique, worthy of the attention of others, to know that we matter in some way. Quite often when a person is exhibiting anger, they’re feeling insignificant. Anger, sometimes violence — obviously, we don’t agree with that. But unfortunately, until there’s a consciousness change, violence will always exist within our species because it’s a fast way to meet needs. Without money or an education, you put a gun to somebody’s head, you become immediately significant. So, we can meet our needs in positive, neutral, or destructive ways.
The next need is for connection. We’re social beings, we crave connection with others. We only survive through love. And love, contrary to what Hollywood would have us believe, is not a feeling, love is a verb, love is doing, putting the needs of others before the needs of ourselves.
Then we need to grow. I think there’s a difference between growth, progress, and achievement. Achievement will give you happiness for a while, but without progress, people stagnate. We want to feel as though we’re improving in some way. Starts when we’re very small, we grow physically, we grow emotionally, we grow intellectually. Some people grow spiritually. I think the key to a fulfilled life is to grow and improve.
Our best opportunities, Steph, I would say, come at times when we feel uncomfortable. And we all want to shy away from discomfort. It’s instinctual. That’s painful, I want to move away from that. But when I work with clients, I encourage them gradually to move more towards something that’s uncomfortable because you start to develop your emotional muscles and you build your resilience. No growth will occur without any discomfort. We start to make discomfort our friend. Discomfort is an opportunity to grow, to improve.
Then the sixth need is for contribution. Contribution is all about giving, serving, serving a cause, serving each other. If we’re growing and contributing, we can achieve the other four needs through those two alone. When you look at people’s behaviour, start to become a practical psychologist. Where’s the deficit for that person? What need are they trying to meet?
If leaders can understand this model, they can become far more effective leaders because they can have a sense of what is driving people and they can then, as a practical psychologist, take the necessary action to help those individuals meet those needs. This is not just in professional lives, but in our personal lives as well. What are the needs of our loved ones?
Brown: That was actually fascinating. It looks at how we approach conflicts with more empathy and more understanding but also urges us to check in with ourselves when that discomfort arises. What are we looking for that’s possibly missing?
Roberts: Absolutely. Where’s the deficits for that person?
Brown: Your session at ENGAGE is called “The Habits of Influential People”. What are two or three instrumental habits from your personal and professional life that you’d like to share with listeners?
Roberts: First of all, Steph, it’s important to have a vision. Have a vision of what you’re trying to accomplish. If you can create a visual representation; a representation of a reality beyond your current situation. If you can see it in your mind’s eye, then you’ve taken the very first step towards accomplishing what you want to accomplish.
In his book, Man’s Search for Meaning, Viktor Frankl spoke about the power of vision. Frankl, who was an Austrian psychiatrist and Jew in the Second World War, and who was imprisoned in the Nazi death camps, Dachau, and he faced some of the worst atrocities. Several members of his family were gassed, and he was experimented on. He speaks about how he survived, not because he had some great survival techniques or skills, but what he had was a vision. A vision of a reality beyond his current situation.
He imagined himself lecturing to his students after the war so that these atrocities will never happen again, and that’s what enabled him to survive that horrendous experience. Everything in the world is created twice — clothes we wear, the vehicles we drive, the homes we live in. They all start out as a visual representation in a designer’s mind. From that vision, we can create what I would call a personal mission statement. Most organisations have them. It gives a sense of cohesion, synergy, direction. I think having our own personal mission statement is extremely valuable.
I think having a mission statement is like strapping a rudder to your boat. You can navigate turbulent water. You can navigate the challenges of life far more effectively when you’ve got that vision. You begin every day with the end in mind. That’s what I hold myself accountable to.
When the challenges of life come along, I refer to my mission. To what degree am I aligned with that mission? Am I on course? If I’m not on course, I make the necessary adjustments. If I behave in a way that’s selfish or I say something that’s thoughtless, I make the necessary apologies and get back on course based upon my values. It creates a changeless core, something inside that never changes. Irrespective of the situation you find yourself in, you remain true to your values.
Brown: That’s a great closing statement for what’s been a really interesting episode. Career-driven things are important, but also, we need to keep the principles that keep us centred and keep us fulfilled.
Roberts: We don’t have to be defined by our biography. We don’t have to be defined by what’s happened to us. What we do, our behaviour, and who we become is determined by the decisions we make.
Of course, this doesn’t come easy. It takes discipline, it takes work. But always remember: The easy path doesn’t pay very well. We must all take the path of discipline, hard work, and responsibility. And ultimately, that will lead us to freedom.
This reminds me of a quote by Gandhi, “We must become the change that we want to see.”
Brown: Thanks so much, Steve. I really enjoyed this conversation with you today. I think it’s a good reminder for anyone tuning in to, wherever your mind’s taking you, just remember to check in with it.
Roberts: Absolutely. Thank you very much, Steph. Been a pleasure.
