Leena Dattani, FCMA, CGMA, discusses how limiting beliefs affected her professional growth, the small steps she takes to overcome them, and the realisation that changed her idea of what it means to be a leader.
“I had a vision that in order to be a great leader, you have to be loud,” Dattani said. “I think because I felt that that needed to be the case, I was almost imitating what I thought a leader should be rather than being myself.”
Dattani also discusses how one organisation achieved the buy-in to improve gender equity, some ways women can start to back themselves professionally, and what International Women’s Day means to her.
What you’ll learn from this episode:
- Small steps for overcoming poor self-confidence.
- The importance of building a supportive network.
- One realisation that helped Dattani become her own leader.
- How one organisation created a business case for gender equity.
- One trick for challenging limiting beliefs.
- What International Women’s Day means for Dattani.
Play the episode below or read the edited transcript:
— To comment on this episode or to suggest an idea for another episode, contact Steph Brown at Stephanie.Brown@aicpa-cima.com.
Transcript
Steph Brown: Hi, listeners. Welcome to the FM podcast. I’m Steph Brown. Joining me for this episode is Leena Dattani, FCMA, CGMA. Leena is a thought leader in Excel and financial modelling, a global keynote speaker on topics which include leadership and confidence, and vice-chair of CIMA’s membership committee.
We’ll be exploring the different steps women can take to develop confidence in their abilities, how organisations can transform gender equity gaps into purposeful change, and what International Women’s Day means for Leena.
Welcome, Leena. Thanks for coming on the podcast.
You’ve mentioned previously that you used to see yourself as simply an “Excel geek” who didn’t really belong on the main stage. Now you’re interacting with global audiences. I’m intrigued to know more about what inspired you to find your voice in the finance world.
Leena Dattani: There’s going to be lots of little things, but I remember one specific meeting I was in: a boardroom. So, we had our [executive] team, we had the non-[executive] directors. We were talking about a model I had built, and I was so proud of that model. To this day, I would say it’s one of my best pieces of work. But I got into that room, and it was an all-day meeting, and suddenly I lost my voice. Which I did every single time. But this time it meant more to me. I went through the whole meeting, and somebody else explained my model, and I didn’t say a thing. I remember leaving, thinking, I can’t go on like this. I’m going to have to do something.
Some of the things that I did, the first thing is I got myself a confidence coach. My confidence coach was absolutely fantastic because he challenged my limiting beliefs. When I said to him, “I don’t want to speak in case I say the wrong thing”, and he would say, “But what would happen? Why do you think it’s the wrong thing?” From his questions, it made me realise that actually, it wasn’t that bad to try. I got into that habit of thinking, I’m going to show up differently.
I did try to do things that took me outside of my comfort zone. I’ll tell you what, I surrounded myself with people that backed me and that were really honest with me. Andrew Harding is one of them, because when I met him at a conference, we arranged to then meet up at the office in London, and he’d watched a recording I was on, and he said to me, “You started with this may not be relevant to you. Then afterwards, Leena, you made a really good point, but nobody heard what you had to say.”
I remember that meeting as well because I was adamant to speak in that meeting. I remember having to press unmute. My heart was racing. And I was like, “Yes! I said something.” But it didn’t land. I think having people that back you that can actually be really honest with you and tell you that actually what you’re saying — because I had a fear of being wrong — that wasn’t right. What I was saying was right: That fear of being wrong was incorrect.
All those little steps I kept taking gave me the confidence to keep doing more. I delivered a webinar this afternoon, and one of the things I was saying in the webinar is that our nervous system likes what we’re doing; our habits. It’s really hard to break out of those habits. Once you start naming them for what they are: They’re a habit; they’re not the truth. You can start to reshape.
Brown: When you were able to access that confidence within, how did you make it stick? So, when inevitably, the next challenge came along, you didn’t regress?
Dattani: I think if we go back to what I was saying about your nervous system, I describe it like fight or flight. Like it thinks there’s danger because you’re trying to change something you’ve always done. When you do it, yeah, my voice might have shook a little bit. My chest might have felt a bit tight, but ultimately, I came at the other end, and I was fine. What I was doing was teaching my brain that actually this isn’t something that is going to do anything bad to me. I’m going to still be okay.
Every time you do that, you can start changing a habit that you’ve had to a new habit. Now every time I get on stage or I’m speaking, do I get nervous? Yes. But my voice doesn’t shake. My chest doesn’t tighten. Keep trying. You’ve got to go through that cycle because it will get easier. But never back down. So, you’re right, don’t regress.
I think there was a point where I did feel like I was regressing because I left myself quite a large gap. That’s what I don’t do now. I try and make it as much as possible. That could be just in the meetings I go to every day because I don’t have opportunities to be on podcasts or webinars or on stage all the time. But I make sure that my view’s getting across, so I’m never going backwards. I’m keeping consistent.
Brown: It’s really nice to hear that you had a supportive community around you, particularly the support you received from the Association’s chief executive of management accounting, Andrew Harding. What advice would you give to people in the early stages of their career, particularly women in finance, that are struggling to find or curate a community that supports and uplifts them?
Dattani: It’s definitely out there. You sometimes have to look. But one of the things I would say is studying CIMA has opened that to me quite easily because CIMA have those events, so it’s really easy to network. You just have to put yourself out there.
I would say, look at what events are going on nearby, attend them, meet other CIMA; they could be students all the way to post qualified plus ten, twenty years. You can familiarise yourself with different people. That’s what you need to do. I think network, it is a big thing.
Brown: Have you come across any trends in the career challenges women in the profession face from both your own experiences and also your discussions with other members?
Dattani: Yes to both.
When it comes to my own experiences, again, self-reflection or hindsight is a great thing. Did I come across challenges? Yes. Did I sometimes put challenges in because of my beliefs? Yes, also. I don’t think the blame can go into any side. For me, I had a vision that in order to be a great leader, you have to be loud. I’m naturally quite softly spoken. I’m quite petite.
I think because I felt that that needed to be the case, I was almost imitating what I thought a leader should be rather than being myself. That was pressure I put on me until I realised that actually, you can do it yourself. You can be an introvert and still be a good leader. You can be an introvert and still set standards or show your voice.
In terms of the membership committee, we’ve been looking at data. When we looked at the data of people that join the profession, we tend to find that it’s an equal split, male and female. By the time you get to senior levels, it’s almost three to one. We know there is an issue.
We are working with organisations that have successfully closed that gap to understand what they’ve done so that we can almost build a set of guidelines of how this can be overcome or what initiatives can be put into place to make it so that, if people that have taken time out of work wish to come back into work, let’s make it easier for them.
Brown: Thanks, Leena. About the organisations that are making progress in closing those gaps. The professional obviously highlights the importance of telling stories through data to improve decision-making.
Recalling those organisations, what steps did they take to firstly, collect data on gender equity in the workplace and secondly, turn those numbers into compelling narratives that did elicit meaningful change?
Dattani: I’ve spoken to one large organisation, actually, that were based in Ireland. So, they implemented this a good few years ago. They initially looked at the levels of split and realised that it was uneven. They then created an initiative where they got, it was predominantly women, but it can be anyone that’s taken a gap from work and said, “Would you like to come and work with us?”
Then what happened is because they were all coming in, initially, as consultants; so there were some benefits to both sides. They got the work experience after coming back. The department got them as almost like a trial run, initially. In order to get buy-in — which I thought was fantastic — they made the department almost put a business case together as to why they have a vacancy and why they should fill it this way.
They already had the buy-in. Then you go through the usual process as you would and, given that this happened quite a few years ago, when I had the conversation — which was only maybe a month ago — they still have people in the organisation today that had come through this scheme.
I think you definitely need buy-in from the top, which is great, but you need doers. If there aren’t people to do what needs to be done, it’s never going to happen. You need people with passion that are absolutely going to see it through. You want the [executive], the board to say, “Yes, please go ahead with this.” But if you don’t have people on the ground getting it done, it’s never going to take off.
Brown: I think that’s a really great note for people in organisations that are considering where to start with those gaps.
I want to circle back to limiting beliefs. What two or three tips would you give any women in finance who are struggling to back themselves?
Dattani: CIMA have a great mentoring programme. I would say really sign up to that because then you have someone else challenging you. Not always easy, I understand.
For me, if I have a belief, I write it down because I think that when I write it on paper, some of the things that seem like they’re real in my head, as soon as I write them down, I think [that] doesn’t actually seem as scary. I write it down, number one. And then I also think about things like, if that did happen, what’s the worst [outcome] and then I have extreme examples, and then I look at how ridiculous those extreme examples are.
But again, it’s just teaching myself to say, again, “You’ve got a habit that’s formed in your head, but that’s not the truth.” It’s a habit and you need to name it for what it is.
Brown: That’s a great note. Sometimes, I suppose, if you visualise things and put it out in front of you, it takes it out of your head.
Leena, thank you for sharing your knowledge and insights with FM today. In closing, what does International Women’s Day mean to you?
Dattani: I think it’s so nice to be able to appreciate women from all over the world. For me, it’s really nice to have someone that I can look at and think: They’re a role model to me. Because there’s a lot of times I would sit in meetings and I’d look around, and there wasn’t anyone that looked like me. There wasn’t anyone that sounded like me. I think when you’re showcasing people, I look at people, and I think I can do it because there are people that look like me and sound like me.
