After initial crisis mode, take time to reflect

Tim Burghout, ACMA, CGMA, the head of finance and accounting for Metro China

Tim Burghout, ACMA, CGMA, the head of finance and accounting for Metro China, a wholesale cash and carry, tells about how he built a playbook as changes due to the novel coronavirus progressed, why it’s important to take time thinking through decisions, and why we see empty shelves in supermarkets.

What you’ll learn from this episode:

  • Burghout’s road map the past three months.
  • If he could go back in time, what resource he wishes he had.
  • Empty supermarket shelves — fact or fiction?
  • How consumer behaviours have changed and what trends will stay after the coronavirus pandemic.

Play the episode below or read the edited transcript:

For more news and reporting on the coronavirus and how management accountants can handle challenges related to the outbreak, visit 
FM’s coronavirus resources page.

To comment on this podcast or to suggest an idea for another podcast, contact Alexis See Tho, an FM magazine associate editor, at


Alexis See Tho: There are signs that show that China's businesses are gradually getting back on track. Retail shops are reopening, workers are back in the office, and many factories have resumed production. But after months of coronavirus disruptions, are companies returning to the same business environment? Let's find out from a management accountant’s experience.

I'm Alexis See Tho, an associate editor at FM magazine, and in this episode, I speak to Tim Burghout, ACMA, CGMA, the head of finance and accounting for Metro China. Metro is a wholesale cash and carry, similar to Costco, Sam's Club, and Booker. It has 97 stores in 50 some cities in China. It's also a food service provider to canteens, restaurants, and hotels.

Speaking to us from Shanghai, Tim shares the different phases of his team's response to challenges in a past few months. And what's next for the retail industry in a post-coronavirus world.

Tim, welcome to the FM podcast.

Tim Burghout: Hi, Alexis. Great to be here. Thank you very much for having me.

See Tho: Wonderful. So, you've been dealing with coronavirus disruptions for almost three months now. Are things returning to normal in Shanghai?

Burghout: Well, as far as normal ever existed in a city like Shanghai, where things are developing at a very high pace, almost continuously. Slowly we are coming back to level of a new normal where at least restaurants are opening up. Spring is coming, the weather is changing, people are going out more. And the direct threat or direct emergency seems to be now under an appropriate control. And the government is slowly allowing us to open more and go out more. So from that perspective, we are returning to a new normal. That being said, checks on health, checks on temperature, wearing masks in public is still mandatory and ongoing, and also foreseen to be ongoing for at least another month or so.

See Tho: And how long was the lockdown in Shanghai?

Burghout: Well, we were never locked down within the city. So lockdown is a very confusing term. A lot of people are using this for different situations. The only area that was on lockdown in China was Wuhan and greater Wuhan, some cities all surrounding Wuhan, all in Hubei province. There, both transportation into and outside the city was closed off. But also all the transportation inside the city was closed off. And that is for me a real lockdown.

The people are only allowed to go shopping basically twice a week, one person per household, and no more. So that is a real lockdown. So in Shanghai, the government did very well from the beginning to have everybody that came into Shanghai register and stay in for a 14-day quarantine period at home. And basically from the first of March, most businesses came back to life in Shanghai, including restaurants.

See Tho: Can you walk us through how it was like back in January when it first happened? What were your main priorities? What was going through your mind?

Burghout: Actually, in that night in the New Year's evening, I got a text message from my team that the Shanghai government wanted us to report on certain stock levels of certain important products, mainly sanitising disinfectant so that the government knew, and it's a very good initiative, how much sanitiser, how much disinfectant is available in the city right now, and whether that’s enough.

And that's the first time basically when it hit me — so, OK, this is going to be probably a serious situation. If the government is asking us to report those numbers to make sure there's enough stock in place. And that's the first thing that went through my mind is OK, right now, the most important thing is that those that can do something should do something. I'm leading a team of 100 people in headquarters, another 173 people in the stores, and my concern is for them to be safe. My concern is for them to be healthy. And my concern is for them to not get infected.

But at the same time, my concern is to make sure that whoever can contribute should contribute. So I was myself personally programming these reports to support the government in this case, because that was simply the quickest way to get it done. And after I did that, I asked my colleagues at IT to help me and support me to automate that even better and run it on a daily basis. But that was first thing that went through my mind — that people that can do something should do something.

Second thing that went through my mind — safety, safety and safety — for my people, for my team, for Metro, for myself, and for my wife. If you fly, you notice when you're in an airplane, you get those instructions of what to do in case of a crash or what to do in case the pressure drops. And the instruction is always you put on the oxygen mask first on yourself, and then on other people. And this is also very important.

Then after a couple of days, you start talking to the team. Then also decisions had to be made regarding our February or January closing. So one in February, but the period of January our closing, are we going to close it? Or we're not going to close it? Can we do it from at home? Can we not do it from home? And in the end, the government announced further extensions of the holiday to the tenth of February, then to the 17th of February, so we decided not to close our period of January.

And why not? Because it's not a basic, it's not what will bring us value in this period.

And there's a lot of discussion and debate ongoing on that. It's not a decision you make in one day, take some days for that dialogue.

See Tho: You skip the January month-end closing and you combined January and February?

Burghout: Correct. In the end, we combined it in one period. And that was a good decision because moving forward, we were really focused with a very small core team of people that could work from home and a number that had to go into the office now and then to support our business in very important value creation aspects, like paying suppliers that we cannot lose, especially on disinfectant, sanitiser, masks, gloves, products that we need to keep our store open and running.

See Tho: You have the benefit of hindsight that a lot of finance teams do not have at the moment. So if you were to look back to when it first started for you in January, up until now in April, how many phases of response would you say are there? You know, you have the first firefighting mode where you responded to immediate crises that that need to be dealt with. And then you know, from there on until today, could you take us through what are the phases?

Burghout: Yeah, so the first phase is really back to basics. So there was a crisis team set up by the company. This is really crisis mode. And every pillar in that crisis team takes care of key issues, keep operations open. In any crisis, actually, that is the key item is how can you ensure you can keep operations open.

Every day not operating is, for the people a day of uncertainty, for the financing a day of losing income. So keep opening. And in our case, because we are a special industry, we need your help providing getting food to the people to the society in China. We're not even allowed to close. So there was a double incentive to make sure that all happened.

So what does that mean? A crisis mode, what that means is really going back to your basics and that you have to look at it and our board did an amazing job there in all facets from all angles. You can break it down always to three P's, purpose, product, and people. So the purpose is why. Why am I doing this? What’s the benefit of doing that? Especially in your basics.

So for example, for Metro China, the purpose is to provide food to China's society. That's the purpose. So it's no longer “do I have five tomatoes on a shelf?” It's “Can I get a tomato on the shelf?” And how do I get it there? Here making decisions is better than not making decisions because you can learn from them and you can adapt.

And the product is what are we going to do? In our case it is make sure food is on the shelves. And then the third P is people is — who should do it? How should it be done? Where can you play a role in that? How many people do you really need to do something?

So for finance, the product is like, OK, payments, I need to do payments. The purpose is why do I need to do payments, why? Because I need to make sure that I get my produce in the store. OK, that means that only do payments to supplier in this moment in the first five days, basically first period that I really need to have the products in and who's going to do it.

You make the selection of can you do it from home? Can you not do it from home? Then who will go in? And how do you prepare that step by step, while not having your standard process in place. So who will approve the final payment? Who will check the supplier and the bank account information? You make those appointments very quickly, early in the phase on who will do that.

And most companies know who should do that. But if the person is not available right now, or cannot work from home, they need to find very quickly an alternative solution. And this is really just the first few days. This is maximum five days. This needs to be set up in five days and you look ahead one week to a month. You don't look much further ahead than that. This is really crisis mode, fixing your basics.

Then moving forward after that period, you go to what I would call “build your modular playbook”. It’s going to be the new normal for the next couple of weeks to three months, or when you think most regulations on COVID will end.

You start about after one week. It will take you about one week to build it. And it's iterative. It changes every day as guidelines and rules change. But here you take the first time to reflect a little bit saying: OK, what's happening? What has happened? What is the situation? What do we expect in next couple of weeks to be coming? This is when we were discussing for Metro, like I said, are we going to do our January closing, yes or no?

We didn't discuss that in the first week. We discussed that in the second week. Because what is the new normal? The new normal for the next three weeks is that we will not be in the office. Can we manage the closing from home — yes or no? If we do it, what will be the impact on my February closing at the beginning of March? How will that impact the quality if I need to rush closing one and then rush closing two?

What is more important? Doing one very good closing with good numbers in there that are properly reflecting that can help again the business to reflect on the strategic review and the technical reviews, which I will talk about very quickly, or do we do things quickly, but end up with information that's not so useful?

What works? What doesn't work? And again, purpose, product, people. What is working, you're elevating your scale. So what was working for us? Well, in a digital solution, we adapted one of our B2B platforms that provide digital ordering solutions. And we adapted that, in some areas, to become a B2C platform.

See Tho: Back to basics, the first few days in the crisis response and then you moved to building a modular playbook in the first two weeks in to a month in. What sort of phase are you in at the moment?

Burghout: So after your modular playbook, you really come into a more strategic, tactical review first. It's really a tactical rewiring of what you were doing, what you were planning for the next quarter.

So if you're a restaurant, for example, now you realise that you cannot sell anything more. So what are you going to do? But difficult to build up a platform where you can join all of a sudden, because if you haven't done that in the past, you're not going to build overnight a website or get delivery people or even join a platform and stuff.

But there is, for example, in Europe, Too Good To Go. It is a company that is working on preventing food loss mainly from supermarkets and retailers in that industry. But they are now supporting restaurants to open up and to become a platform for restaurants to sell processed food to their customers, and they will support you in getting that delivered. That's one of the things you need to play in quickly if there's now the opportunity.

Another solution here was that, in China, a lot of restaurants became supermarkets. They started selling fresh food. Even hypermarkets or supermarkets they're not in the city centres located that strongly anymore, especially in Shanghai, for example. But restaurants are all over.

So they become like the point of sales for communities to get rice, to get vegetables, to get very basic needs. And that's all happened between, you know, your modular playbook to becoming a tactical player in the market that arise. And here is also the moment where — and I'm a big fan of always focusing on income generation — focus on generating income, focus on generating value in any way possible.

Whether it's Tesla is now making ventilators, whether it’s Uniqlo that focused their advertisement completely on rules and regulation updates to their customer, and while doing that still provide the online options to shop. So they attracted a lot of traffic to their WeChat and to their online viewing simply by very quickly providing all the latest rules and guidelines and updates because everybody wants to know that now — what's the new regulation? Then they (customers) had a very fixed point where they could find it, and then they start purchasing directly as well.

See Tho: I like to get into a supply chain a little bit. You were considered an essential service during the height of coronavirus spread in Shanghai. Right now, we see a lot of empty shelves in supermarkets around the world. But companies and governments are saying that there's no need for panic buying. There are enough supplies. Can you shed some light on what’s happening, what we see happening around the world?

Burghout: This is very interesting phenomenon. So and it actually fits very, very good in the final phase. So when you're doing your tactical review, you look at some cost-saving options. You look at where can you create efficiency. And then you start moving through your strategic thinking, what's going to happen the next two, three years, because tactical is for the end of this calendar year. Then you need to strategic rewrite.

What does this mean for the future? This actually hits in very well on your question, because when you look at what happened in those peak moments, it's kind of like a DDoS attack on your website. There is just so much question, so much demand in such a short notice that no matter how well your supply chain is, you can never fulfil it. It's impossible.

You make a forecasting, what do you think you're going to sell, and it's nowadays, very much automated. Where, by the way, in Europe, in the US, they might have made the mistake of not expecting COVID to enter in Europe and the US and therefore their forecasting model on purchasing and on having the supply in on what might have been based on regular demand.

And it peaked, and you cannot predict that, at least not to the full extent. And the key issue, and that's where the strategic thinking for the future supply chain will be very interesting, is that in most cases the products are there. That's why the governments are saying the products are there.

But the governments get the numbers as a total perspective. So if you look at a country like the United States of America, to make an example there. Now you can say, “Hey, we have more than enough masks, more than enough carrots, more than enough tomatoes”. Because in the whole United States, I have them. But if you're all located in California, then your New York stores probably have an issue.

And in a normal circumstance, it’s no problem because you can ship them out and fly them over. But now you can't because the flying is restricted. The movement of people is restricted. Who will fly? Who wants to fly? At what price? And what is the cost?

The CEO of Tesco in the UK had a nice interview, and he said, we learned more in ten days than in ten years. Basically we’re learning more in a few weeks than in ten years.

But in China, with the developments being here always so fast and so high-paced, probably not completely comparable and very adaptable. So, we had a very short peak in China, where the same thing happened. Basically, the producer had the goods, the point of sales wanted to have the goods, but in between that delivery was a bit interrupted.

And in China, that's because of the Chinese New Year where people take a holiday. It was the New Year holiday. And at the same time, the demand goes up. Normally in Chinese New Year that happens and now it went up even higher. So therefore for a very short moment, there were some locations where the shelves were empty for a very short time frame.

Very quickly, that was picked up and it was very quickly mitigated by making sure that definitely in every category, basics need to be there. Again, back to basics, in the beginning. And most of the markets in the UK or in Europe will say the same thing: “Overnight, we reshelved. And maybe one day later, the product will be there. Don't worry.”

But the media likes to jump on that and make those pictures and see all the shelves are empty. Actually, I read this morning that the United States is throwing away more food right now than ever before. Because the schools are closed, the universities are closed, and all those canteens are not purchasing anything. And the produce of that was all produced and it was ready to be shipped out, but they don't need it and it's all being thrown away. So the food is there, but how to get it from point A to point B in this period. That is the challenge.

See Tho: So it's a logistical challenge. Not really producers not be able to produce enough?

Burghout: It's a regulatory challenge. It's about regulations. If you give the regulation saying home quarantine 14 days extended, but you are a truck driver that drives goods to supermarkets, how do you do that? If you are a doctor working in hospital and you're working shifts now probably 14, 16 hours — I have deep respect for these people — it's unbelievable what they are doing. How do they can purchase the supermarket foods? They will go into the evening time — maybe 8 o'clock they arrive everything is empty because the refilling goes overnight.

That's why Tesco, for example, it's a good example, they are setting up those small shops close to hospitals. That's why they get priority on ordering online. In Europe, in the Netherlands, for example, doctors get priority at all the time to order online. If you're a doctor, you get priority, you come at the top of the list.

See Tho: I want to get into consumer behaviour. These different ways of selling because people can't go to stores every day to get the stuff they need. The things that you've changed, how has it changed consumer behaviour?

Burghout: Yeah, that's a very interesting question. And everybody wants to know that. This is kind of like the holy grail of moving forward and reviewing your strategic position.

I think very importantly, again, I come back to my three P's. I keep coming back to that. So what's the purpose? What's the purpose of people? I think, in the short term, there's two reasons why offline, especially offline, food increases a lot.

And the reason for that is that when you're in quarantine and you are allowed to go out maybe a few times a week, and the main reason why you're allowed to go out is to buy your food. Well, you're very happy you can go out. You can go to the supermarket or hypermarket, right? Exactly. It's the highlight of the week, to purchase your own food, to select your own food.

Another reason in China why that happened is because the home deliveries were not really to home. They were dropped off at the front of compounds, at the front of the buildings where your apartment is located. And so that means that if you're not waiting there at the moment it comes, it stays out there for a while — fresh food, frozen food. I'm not sure if you want that.

Some people did it. I've seen people receiving it like that, but I've seen more people saying and also telling me: “Look, when it comes down to food, I don't want to get it dirty. I don't want to get it infected. I don't want to be sick. I want to shop my own food and bring it home directly and make sure the time frame is short and it's properly treated.”

So when you talk about purpose here — from a longer term strategically — I think there will be a shift into a more conscious purchasing in regard to health.

So there will be a balance between moving from leisure products, from fun products to health products, and luxury to health products, people will get a slightly a warning shot that apparently we are not as all-powerful as humankind as we might think that we are. And it can be over very quickly so make sure that you have a proper balance and a proper basis on your own health.

At the same time, in the short term there could be a lot of celebrating later on, of course, when this is all over and people can go out again. But it's also for manufacturers very interesting development because it's already happening. Gucci is producing face masks and Louie Vuitton is producing sanitiser. That could continue because the need for masks, and the need for sanitisers will continue much longer than most people have estimated. It could go one for years.

So it'd be cool if you can wear a Gucci face mask one, two years from now. They don't stop here. On products, there will be definitely different supply chains. Very heavy discussion, moving production out of China, doing more locally, having a more diverse portfolio, and it's about diverse portfolio, whether it is manufacturing or whether it's customer.

Something that's happening now in China. Taobao is launching M2C, which is manufacturer to consumer. That is to help the manufacturers directly access a larger consumer base, and to help them kick-start their business. That will continue.

But also regulation impacts — that keeps on a major a major question. What type of regulations kicking in? what type of support will we get from the government? What type of cash needs do you have moving forward in your strategic choices? And how does it impact your covenants? And as well, is insurances and consumer behaviour. Much more focus will be on insurances. And as I think both business and consumer behaviours. Should we or should we not be insured for these types of interruptions? And what type of insurance do we want? Whether it's healthcare or whether it is, for example, income. Not many people are insured for income losses when they're sick.

See Tho: You mentioned a lot of changes in consumer behaviour that are already happening. But how much of it is actually short term? You know, when a month or two months down the road, will consumers still behave that way? Or do you think that it is actually here to stay?

Burghout: I think it will be to stay in most cases. In which way is a different question. But definitely the focus on health will continue. There was already a huge health and environmental uptick before this. And this will only further push it down the road — whether we talk about the use of plastic. I think recycling will become a very hot topic, especially of plastic.

See Tho: Why is that so?

Burghout: Yeah, because there's a lot of push before COVID on reducing the use of plastic. But COVID shows how important plastic is when you want to keep things clean in hospitals. And when you want to keep things clean in food and when you want to keep food longer, to increase the shelf life.

Plastic has a huge advantage there. The problem is, how do we deal with it afterwards. You can see now all the gloves flying around, pictures of the gloves in the trees and on the floors and in the forest. Those need to be recycled and there are options to recycle plastic.

There's a company here in Shanghai, it's a Dutch company, called Waste to Wear. They recycle plastic into clothes. It’s possible. And that will stay, that mentality will be enforced and stay. How does it change the behaviour precisely? It will be more about quality. It will be more about health. And it will be more about convenience. That’s always there, but it will keep moving forward.  

So again, compressing time, make it simpler, at an acceptable cost. And people will demand from the government — that will stay. They will demand from the governments, in case of emergencies, certain products are simply available.

See Tho: Looking back at what you did, you know, for the past three months, what are some things that you think you did, right?

Burghout: I think what we did really right is going back to basics and make sure as a company that people safety is by far number one. And what we also did right is making sure that in writing the playbook, we took into consideration the emotional status of people.

People feel like they're in zero gravity. Now, the first couple days is a rush. We need to make sure things are up and running. We need to make sure the basics are covered. But then there's this calm, people feel like they're in zero gravity, what's going to happen?

And what our board did was they made sure that we could stay open. And that gives a very good message to everybody saying, “We're here. We will continue and there will be a moment you come back to us and you will be office again, we start working again.” And creating that atmosphere, we did really, really well.

See Tho: About mistakes, any mistakes we can learn from?

Burghout: Now you're asking me directly if I make any mistakes [laughs].

See Tho: [Laughs] We always learn from those past mistakes.

Burghout: Yeah, well, I have to say Metro as a whole made very little mistakes. But me personally, I made a few mistakes. And then let's talk about those.

So one of my mistakes is that I made a few decisions too quick, where I say, OK, I could have stepped back a little bit and reflected a little bit more. I like that. I like quick decisions, but we could have saved some energy and time by reflecting it a little bit over. Especially once you get out of that basic period. It's OK to reflect a little bit and think a little bit over what type of decisions do you want to make.

So I was pretty pushy on let's not close January. In the end it was the right decision, but I was pretty pushy on that. I could have been a bit more reflective and give it a bit more time to let it settle in for the decision-makers, which are not only in China, but also in Germany, and many different stakeholders involved. I could have taken some more time for that and say, OK, let's talk it over. That's something that is my learning.

What else could I have done better? Well, I could have spent more time with people on their emotional status and their emotional wellbeing. I could have set up Zoom meetings face to face like this. We were on WeChat and call so we were contacting on an almost daily basis. But we could have spent more time on how people are really feeling, how are you doing, how's the emotion.

I learned here actually from a teacher, here in China, who asks and spends time in their classes every day, at least one hour, when the online classes starting, with how are people doing. How are the kids doing? And we're talking about kids at 8, 9 years old. So these are these are very young children there's like, “Hey, did you play yesterday?” So that not focused on doing the homework. And that's interesting because in China, in most cases, the focus is really on teaching material and preparing for the exams. And now, there is a switch now saying, OK, we need to consider the emotional wellbeing of the children that are staying at home for such a long period.

See Tho: If you could go back to January, what are some resources you wish that you had?

Burghout: I would love to have had cloud-based computing, and cloud-based accounting, and full access for everybody from their home environment. It doesn’t even have to be a company laptop into that. That would have been great. And not so much for the fact of that I want to have two products ready or that but more really, for the mental state of people. Having a purpose for people to do something is most important, that they can log in, that they can contribute. That is very important for people to be connected with the company, and I think that would have been really, really great to have.

See Tho: So, we already touched a little bit on this. What other changes do you see in the retail industry after coronavirus?

Burghout: In the retail industry, I read an interesting article yesterday on route to market. And so I think that in all FMCG route to market will become more directly from manufacturers to consumers, especially in Europe and US.

In China, it is already more happening. I don't want to say we’re ahead. But it's just a development that is here ongoing for a longer period. That will also happen now in the US and in Europe and UK. Because you see how sensitive this middleman is. If it goes over many different pallets, then it's just a much longer lead time. And once you're in crisis, when something happens, you don't have the product. So that will definitely happen in retail to shorten the distance between the end user and the actual producer, manufacturer.

I think there will be much more localisation of production. But how much more, I don't dare to say because economies of scales are still in play. And you cannot compete in price at all. If you talk about painkillers, for example, I know that in the United States, Tylenol is currently running short. Even in a country like the US with 400 million people roughly, you cannot compete with India or China that are producing for over a billion.

They can easily add some production capacity and make some more at a much lower price point, purely from economies of scales, than you can never do in the US or in Europe.

So the question is, which products and which items will impact that. And what definitely will stay after the virus, in terms of regulations and co-operation between people and companies. I hope that stays. I hope that this co-operation you see now between Google and Apple, and between Alibaba and Tencent and Huawei, who were all helping each other out. Between companies in Europe, between universities that are developing all kinds of interesting things.

And what definitely will happen is, that will stay is, the role of strategic supply chain will become more and more important. And actually may become invented in this period because there's a lot of supply chain planners, there's a lot of supply chain directors, there's a lot of forecasters in the world, but it's very much tax-driven and very much cost-driven. And I think this could change into a much more end-consumer-focused, driven, customer-driven.

See Tho: With these changes that you think will stay, for a finance professional, what are different skillsets they would need?

Burghout: I think, what I earlier said, will become now even true for a finance professional. The fact that you have acceptable information on time is more important than that you have complete information delayed.

So the current discussion ongoing in the accounting world on subsequent events, and should you adjust or not adjust your 2019 calendar-year reporting accounts, is for me a non-discussion, it's a non-added value discussion. It is way too far off from real business and real business support.

Nobody knew at the end of December this was going to happen. There are so many triggers and so many regulations that is impacting that must be decided after December and even decided very long after December. That the discussion itself — should you reflect that into your accounts of calendar year 2019? — is absolutely not value added. Because we are now already in in April, May.

And this may be different in mentality also between maybe the East and the West. I'm not looking so much at what did I learn from yesterday, I'm looking forward what I'm going to do tomorrow. And what's the point to now discuss what to reflect in 2019 accounts? Everybody knows now COVID happened. Everybody knows it impacted multiple companies.

So when you look at those numbers, you know, OK, that was at the end of 2019. After that there was COVID. So, whenever I look at the quarter results, that's going to look probably different. The focus should be on what adds value. I think the change in finance for the future is, especially coming from the COVID, is more and more on what adds value to the business, and real value.

So that means what can you convert into cash, what can you convert into cost-saving, what can you convert into new customers. That is adding value. And for the finance professional moving forward, having the right numbers is very important. Absolutely no doubt, but they also need to be at the right time.

See Tho: For you personally, any lessons you've learned?

Burghout: Well, one of the lessons that I have learned is that you have never seen everything in life and that you have never learned everything in life.

There’s much, much, much more out there that happen at an any given time, that you’re never prepared for, and you can never be prepared for.

And for myself, family time, and the focus on the importance of having a partner in life has been reinforced again. It reminds you just how important it is. I could not have gone through this without having the personal relationship that I have with my wife, and with her parents, and without having the people I work with here in Metro.

That would have been impossible. So having the right people, that’s really a learning.

And for companies out there, this could be the right moment to start hiring the right people.

Well, thank you very much Tim, for taking the time to speak to us. And take care.

Burghout: Thank you very much, Alexis.