It makes sense that the themes emerging from the words of Phillipa Spicer, FCMA, CGMA, and Bruce Martin, ACMA, CGMA, are similar — they are sister and brother, both having ascended to CEO roles in the UK. Spicer set forward on a path to becoming a management accountant, and her younger brother followed.
In this conversation, hear about their early trips to the office while growing up in South Africa, the questions they got from students, and the advice they give about being your own self as a CEO.
What you’ll learn from this episode:
- Martin and Spicer’s youth in South Africa (2:24).
- The early exposure they had to office “work” (5:50).
- Spicer’s reflection on “being really fortunate” to land a temporary role with Unilever (7:01).
- How Spicer has applied her work in other sectors to the role as CEO of a charity (9:03).
- Martin’s path to a role at Vodafone in the UK and then other businesses (12:26).
- The top challenges that Spicer (17:42) and Martin (20:03) have overcome to make the move from finance leader to chief executive.
- The siblings’ recall of speaking about career journeys with university students (Spicer at 22:25 and Martin at 24:57).
- Advice from Martin (28:15) and Spicer (29:39) for aspiring CEOs.
- Why Spicer advises budding leaders to “make your own kind of music” (30:54).
Play the episode below or read the edited transcript:
To comment on this episode or to suggest an idea for another episode, contact Neil Amato at Neil.Amato@aicpa-cima.com.
Transcript
Neil Amato: Welcome back to the FM magazine podcast. This is your host, Neil Amato. Today’s episode is going to be with CIMA-qualified siblings, both of whom have advanced to the role of CEO in their organisation. I’m looking forward to this conversation today, and I think you as the listener will enjoy it.
Their names; Bruce Martin, Phillipa Spicer. Bruce, Phillipa, welcome to the podcast. I’m hoping you could first each explain the roles you’re in now, where you’re based, and how long you’ve had those roles. I guess Phillipa, we’ll have you go first on this one.
Phillipa Spicer: Thanks, Neil. I’m the Chief Executive of YMCA Fairthorne Group, which is a £12 million pound local charity operating across Hampshire and the Isle of Wight. I’m based at our charity’s headquarters, which is Fairthorne Manor, a large, 94-acre outdoor activity center just outside Botley near Southampton in Hampshire. But I spend quite a lot of my time across Hampshire and the Isle of Wight visiting our many branches.
I’ve been in post as chief exec for about [nine] months now, having succeeded the charity’s founding CEO in November last year.
Bruce Martin: Thank you, Neil, for having us on the show today. Really excited to speak to you. I’m chief exec of a private equity-backed software business. We are based in Staines-upon-Thames, a glamorous part of England just outside London. I’ve been in the role now almost coming up to one year. Initially joined the business two years ago, first as CFO and then was promoted up into chief exec about a year ago.
Amato: Now we’ll get to how you two ended up in the UK in a bit, but I guess you both, obviously both as siblings, you grew up in South Africa. How far apart are you in age, and I guess I’ll pick on Bruce for this one. How did you two get along as kids?
Martin: Neil, that’s quite a controversial question. Are you trying to cause any family rifts here? I have to be really careful how I answer this question. I am the younger brother. I’m three years younger than my sister. Honestly, as far as kids go, we got along pretty damn well. I think there were not many fights or fisticuffs. We actually got along exceptionally nicely. Our mother was a stay-at-home mother. I think she had a huge to play in that, making sure that we didn’t get to that point where we want it to get stuck into each other.
But also we had really similar interests. In South Africa, we spent a lot of time outdoors. During the holidays we didn’t have consoles or mobile phones or any of those types of things or distractions when we were children. We ended up doing a lot of things together. Outside, sport being one of those where both of us were played really competitive levels of sport in our own disciplines.
I think having those similar values as children driven by our mother definitely meant that we actually got along pretty well. My sister may say something different, but I thought I was an angel of a brother and she couldn’t have asked for anything, else to be honest.
Amato: Phillipa it’s now your chance for a rebuttal, so go ahead.
Spicer: I think Bruce nailed it really. I think we’re connected by a love of the outdoors and our sports. And very often if it was Wimbledon there’d be a tennis court pitch in the back garden, or more often than not a cricket pitch actually, because that was Bruce’s sport of choice at that moment in time, which he went on to do very well in competitively. I think he’s absolutely right, we love the outdoors.
I think we were very different children. Bruce was quite a quiet child, whereas I was a lot more outgoing. I think what’s really interesting is I think that’s sort of changed as we’ve become adults. Bruce is really outgoing and I think I’m a little bit more introverted. That just happens. But we were lucky to grow up in a family home that was really supportive.
Our dad was the breadwinner and as Bruce said, mom stayed at home, but our parents supported us in everything we wanted to do, right the way from academics to sport. They’d be on the side of the cricket pitch or the athletics track, it didn’t matter. We were really lucky to grow up in a supportive, loving family. I think that played a really good, important part in terms of how we have gone on to see our careers in years to come, and the stability and the support that we drew from that moment in our lives.
Amato: Now, Bruce has told me, Phillipa, that you sold him on the value of becoming CIMA qualified. So, one, I guess, is that true, and also why did that path appeal to you?
Spicer: That’s really interesting because before you asked that question, I didn’t I realise I had sold him on the value of becoming CIMA qualified. I think what’s really interesting for us is that, for me in particular, I’ve always found business matters very interesting. Our dad was the managing director of a company in Durban, and Bruce and I had obviously lots of opportunity to see what living in an office looked like – complete with briefcase and calculator and all that kind of stuff.
Often when Bruce and I were children growing up, my dad would pop into the office on a Saturday, and Bruce and I would beg to go along. We loved going to the office; it was such an exciting time. Back in the day where you had intercom telephones and you could phone from office to office. Interestingly enough, I always ended up being the secretary and Bruce sitting in the bosses chair, which I don’t know if that was a sign of things to come. We did that. We loved playing in the office. The highlight at the end of the day was having a can of Coke out the fridge before we went home. I think that perhaps set the foundation.
In comparison with the UK though, the South African skilling system encourages young people to make career choices quite early on. As an example, you’ll very seldom have a university graduate with a fine arts degree being accepted onto a grad trainee programme in South Africa to be an accountant, or to be a scientist, or an engineer.
That just doesn’t really happen regardless of whether they were top of the class or not. There’s an expectation that you would have had some kind of training. Well, certainly when Bruce and I were training, before you made a career decision. I was really fortunate to be offered a vacation assignment with Unilever in South Africa partway through my university degree. That really opened my eyes to the value that a pathway such as CIMA can create for an organisation.
Before then, I had only really been exposed to traditional accounting type jobs — friends that were chartered accountants or worked in the financial sector in that regard. I personally found financial accounting boring. My accounting teacher at school I remember saying to me, Phillipa for goodness sake, don’t follow a career in accounting, you’re not really good.
But I think after my time at Unilever, during that vacation project, I was there for three weeks. I was absolutely captivated by management accounting and how real and how relevant it made the numbers seem. I could see stories in the numbers and how those stories could be used to move this particular project that I was working on and how to move that forward. It was after that experience, I think, that it consolidated my view that a pathway involving CIMA was certainly the right route for me.
I was really lucky in that Unilever in South Africa had an exceptional grad programme. I was fortunate enough to join that once I had finished my bachelor’s degree, and we were lucky because our cohort of grad intakes, there were about 10 of us that Unilever took on in that year, were able to complete our formal CIMA exams by the age of 22.
We found ourselves in a unique situation, having ticked all the boxes on the exams. But of course what we lacked was life experience and work experience. But that was something that then followed through with Unilever and these roles and opportunities that they provided as part of that.
Amato: Now you mentioned Unilever. To follow on to that, how did that background working for that company help you at your current role at the YMCA?
Spicer: It certainly did set the platform for my pathway and my trajectory. As I said earlier, I was fortunate to join the grad scheme, and then transferred from South Africa to the UK. Then my career path just went from strength to strength thereafter. I’ve always loved working with tangible products, and the whole [fast moving consumer goods] sector really appeals to me in that regard.
When I left my last commercial sector job as finance director for Vitacress salads and herbs, to join the YMCA. It felt to me like a really relevant move. Since my early teens, I’ve always engaged in volunteering and giving back to our community. Bruce mentioned our parents earlier and engaging in community work was a quality that our late mother instilled in Bruce and I as children. It’s something which both of us have gone on to do independently in our adult lives through different channels.
It became obvious to me that I could use the skill set that I had developed in the commercial sector to drive real value and commerciality for the third sector, for the charities. By bringing a commercial lens to charity finances you can really start to challenge sustainability, financial sustainability, and charitable motives around different work streams that charities might have.
My charity, YMCA, we have quite a diverse range of operations that we engage in; from housing and accommodation for young people that are homeless, to childcare and nursery provision, to outdoor activity centers, etc. Having that commercial angle to what I bring to the YMCA has really helped me to take a commercial approach with the YMCA, to make sure our intentions and strategic direction are perfectly clear. As an example, for our childcare, that is a commercial arm of the work that we do, and we channel those funds back into the charitable arms of the work that we do.
Thinking about how you extract value from your work streams to fulfill your overall strategic directive, or your mission, what you’re trying to do, the social problem you’re trying to solve, can really help I think. During my commercial career, many of the CEOs that I’ve worked for or when I was a finance manager, the finance directors, they afforded me the opportunity to extend my area of influence. I often picked up other functions to line-manage outside of just finance; HR, IT, often functions that perhaps didn’t obviously fit elsewhere, so they would just become part of an admin function.
I’ve also been in the past have line-managed operations before as well. But I think those opportunities to extend my reach beyond just compilation of the management accounts or budgets helped prepare me for my role at the YMCA, by giving me exposure to important aspects of running a charity. Also more importantly, I’m sure Bruce will agree, around how you manage people, and that matrix style of working and collaboration. For us as a charity, that’s super important because our resources are very tight.
Amato: Bruce, I guess, tell me something briefly about your path and how you’ve ended up in in your current role at Tax Systems.
Martin: I took a slightly different path. My sister mentioned that by 22 she had done her exams and she was set up and ready to go. I think I passed my exams probably about four or five years after her, because I studied and worked as I went. But I moved to the UK from South Africa when I finished university. When I arrived in the UK I had no work experience.
It was difficult for me to go into interviews with having zero work experience. Because people in this country traditionally would work summer intern jobs, get a little bit of an understanding of a commercial organisation, and I was just used to coaching cricket, being in the sun, and having a good time in university. It took me a little bit longer I think than my sister to settle into what it meant to be in a career, and to forge your career. I was lucky enough early on in my career to land a role with Vodafone. Again, similar to Unilever, it was a great place to be, a really good place to be for a young accountant who was learning what it meant to work in a finance environment. I had no idea in practice, you’re guessing whether it’s going to be the same as what you learned at university and in reality, it’s ever so slightly different.
Again, the opportunities that were afforded to me at Vodafone were a sponsorship of my CMA qualification. What I used Vodafone for was to get a taste of those different aspects of finance. It took me a long time to realise that, I spent the first three years in the same role. Again, I was expecting someone to come to me and say, don’t worry, Bruce, here’s your career path, you will be CFO. It’s eight years, this is what the path looks like. You soon realise that’s not the case and actually you’re in charge of your own career and you need to go out there and make it happen for yourself. So, I did. I made sure that every 18 months I was looking for a new role, and trying to continue learning as much as I could. Because I felt that as soon as I stopped learning, I was getting comfortable. I wanted to continue that learning trajectory and being uncomfortable, in my experience means that you are really learning.
I stayed at Vodafone for seven, eight years, understanding the different types [of finance]: commercial finance, financial accounting, FP&A, financial planning and analysis. I did various roles. What I really struggled with at Vodafone was getting to the end of the year and high-fiving for adjusted growth of 1%. That for me as a competitive guy was not really that exciting. I wanted to be in a smaller business that was growing, there was a bit of excitement. I decided that I would get out of big corporate world life. Also eight years in the telco sector, you don’t be branded as a sector expert. Some people do and there’s nothing wrong with that.
There’s nothing wrong with being a sector expert, I didn’t want to do that. I wanted to go and see what’s out there in the world. I’ve always had an affinity with IT, gaming and things like that, so I thought software would be a great place to go. Then moved into my first private equity-backed software business as head of FP&A reporting to the CFO. That was a global business; $100 million of revenue.
They had done their secondary buyout with a private equity fund called Bridgepoint. I worked for a really good CFO. They had a lot of good knowledge, and I learned a heckuva lot about what private equity meant, but also what it meant to run a finance function well. Me being me,18 months into that role, I thought, I want to do that guy’s job. I know I’m not qualified enough to do it on the scale such as this, but there are things that I, ambitions I have, and I want to lead a finance team.
But I did struggle having studied CIMA, and not doing a lot of financial accounting, and I struggled with the idea of sitting in an interview and [being asked] really difficult questions; have you been through an audit? Do you understand your cashflow well? Can you look after working capital? Those types of things I really was nervous about. I thought, I would rather go and get that confidence by doing the role itself. I actually went off to a smaller business that was out of private equity, was a regulated business, regulated by the FCA. It was a boutique investment bank and I thought it’s quite simple in its financial setup. But I went in there as CFO/COO, which meant that I’ve got the full breadth of the finance function, as well as the operational function. Like Phillipa said, good CFOs traditionally found themselves looking after HR, IT, and certain operational elements. That role was great for me, because it gave me that breadth of experience.
Then lucky enough, we managed to sell that business to Rothschild & Co., in 2019. That I wasn’t expecting, but it was another good bit of experienced for me to have on my CV when I was thinking about jumping back into another private equity-backed software business, which I did when I joined Tax Systems two years ago. It’s been an interesting path. I’ve gone across FTSE 100 telco to owner-managed boutique investment bank to a mid-cap private equity-backed software business. It’s been exciting and I’ve learned a lot along the way, but it’s definitely not what you would consider a traditional route to be where I am today, I guess.
Amato: Right, and that leads in nicely to my next question, I guess for either of you. You have the finance background, so what have been some of the biggest challenges in moving out of finance into the CEO roles that you have?
Spicer: I think having having a numerate chief executive is a must for any charity. I’m speaking from my current experience. Often you’ll get people that come to chief exec roles from a strong operation background, or sales background. But I think without that level of numeracy, given the often precarious situations that charities find themselves in financially, it’s really important to have a numerate CEO. One of the things I’ve had to learn to do is that ensuring I don’t revert to type and go back to leaning on the numbers heavily, using the information that the numbers are showing me, the knowledge and the understanding of the story underpinning them, and using that information to really move your organisation forward.
I’m quite good working with people. I love working with people. I find those interactions quite easy. I’m not a natural networker, unlike my brother, who’s exceptional at networking. But I find working with people really quite interesting and quite fulfilling. Bringing my knowledge of numeracy to the financial story alongside it, I think helps me be a better leader, provides clarity. I’m by nature quite a direct person anyway, so I can cut through some of the noise and be very clear about what my expectations are.
But I am really pleased to have moved past the days when I’m working to a month-end deadline because I remember the stresses and the late nights like they were yesterday really. But I’m really excited about being the leader of the strategy and being the person that’s going to bring our organisation on and move it forward during the season of its operational life really, and that’s really what gets me out of bed in the morning. It makes me quite excited about it.
I don’t think I could have done that without the pathway that I’ve taken having CIMA as the cornerstone of my expertise. Because I certainly think it’s taught me and trained me and supported me to be a lot more questioning of circumstances and situations, which makes me a better chief exec, I think.
Amato: Bruce?
Martin: For me, I think the biggest challenge that I’ve encountered is defining what I want to be as a CEO. What I mean by that is, when you’re a junior finance professional there’s a very clear path to be a CFO. You can go and do the tick boxes and say I understand the balance sheet, I understand the cash flow, I understand the P&L, I understand what it means to drive commercial finance for an organisation and be at the beating heart of the operation.
But what makes a good CEO and how can you tick those boxes? That for me is a challenge each day. But what I’m taking comfort in is there is no right way of being a CEO. You will have your own style and have your own way of doing things. That for me is reassuring, knowing that again, similar to my early stages in Vodafone, sitting around waiting for someone to tell me, actually, no, Bruce, go out and be the CEO and be your own CEO as you see fit.
The reason why I say that is, as Phillipa mentioned, I know finance. But in a software business, I’m no product expert, I’m no sales expert. I’m definitely not a techie. Who gives me the right to be giving those guys a hard time when my leadership team, my CTO, my chief growth officer, they are all experts in their field? But my ultimate role is I’m accountable to the board and if I’m uncomfortable, it’s my right to go in there and ask those difficult questions irrespective of whether I think I know the subject or not.
I think what’s helped me through my career and is really helping me now, is I’ve always had a curiosity in things that are not finance actually. Similar to my sister, I’m not a big financial accountant. I definitely would make a terrible auditor. But what I do have is I’ve got a natural curiosity in other operational bits of the company, and so I think using that curiosity has really helped me overcome that challenge.
Amato: This isn’t the first time you two have spoken together about your accounting and finance backgrounds. I guess you spoke to some university students. I’m not sure when that was, but if you could fill me in on that and maybe what messages you passed on to them as students or what else stood out about that occasion?
Spicer: Well, it came through the YMCA actually. A colleague of mine used to go and speak about charities, etc, at the university, and she passed the contact onto me. They approached us, well me initially, and asked if we, Bruce and I, would go and speak to I think it was their third-year students. I rang up and said to Bruce: “Come along and join me. It would be quite nice [for] the two of us.” We sat on the couch and faced about 30-40 young people. It was a really lovely opportunity for us to share very different financially driven career pathways coming from the same base, if you like, the CIMA qualification base.
It was great. It was great to all be together sharing our thoughts around why we’d made the choices we had made and reflecting on our different pathways, Bruce will talk in a minute, in terms of what he thought about that experience. I was very intrigued as to the questions that we were asked by the uni students. They were all very keen to follow us on LinkedIn and could we have your contacts and things like that. But I think for me, they were really interested in why I had chosen to move into the charity sector from a commercial finance background and why Bruce’s career has followed the private equity-backed route.
They were challenging the thinking around; what are the salaries like in comparison? What are the career pathways look like? Where am I going to most be developed? It was useful to have very different financial channels to refer to, to give them an idea of what things are like. You think you learn everything at university that sets you up for your Day 1 at the job. Bruce gave the example in his first role at Vodafone. You do learn everything at uni, but you can’t ever really be prepared for what it’s like working in the big wide world where the spreadsheets look different. The pressures and the deadlines, etc., are not representative necessarily of what life is like in uni.
I think having that experience, of doing some work experience alongside that really certainly makes it more interesting, but it was a great experience. I really enjoyed it. I’m sure Bruce will share in a minute about his reflections on that time.
Martin: Yeah. Similar to Phillipa, I absolutely loved that. My big passion is talking to young people and helping them in any way that I can to help them get a little bit ahead because I always feel that if I’d had someone that I could go to, I probably could have learned a lot earlier in my career that would have helped me get out of that first three years at Vodafone a lot quicker.
I’m always happy to speak to young people and let them know about my journey. I never say that it’s a guarantee. It’s just one story and they can go and ask many people about their stories and pick the components, parts of those stories out for themselves and make it work for their own careers. The one thing that, it’s probably quite a terrible analogy, not an analogy, but a terrible thing to say. But, for me still, there’s no substitute for hard work. I know that in the modern day, the way things are going, people are balancing off their careers with their lives outside of work.
But for me, I still find that there is no substitute for putting your head down and doing a helluva good job. That doesn’t mean you have to work 20 hours a day. But that means that you have to work effectively and efficiently and not get distracted.
Be able to concentrate for the hours that you are working to get the most out of them. So that’s always something that there’s absolutely no substitute for that and being efficient, saying no. One of the biggest, best bits of advice I was given is that you should say no more than you say yes. Which actually in reality is really difficult because everyone’s trying to be a good person by saying yes and giving up their time.
But actually, you need to really think about what you’re doing and being efficient in what you’re doing. As I said, thoroughly enjoyed the experience. Hopefully, we’ll get it to do it again at some point. I think we did it pre-COVID and then COVID came along. Hopefully, we’ll be able to go and do that again. I actually did a separate piece similar to that with my sister in one of the London universities where, as I said, people are keen to get onto LinkedIn and add you. I got a lot of people having follow-up calls and wanting to understand what it meant to be working in investment banking; is it as glamorous as everyone makes it out? It’s those types of things when you’re getting into people really young, you can debunk a lot of those myths about what it means to work in investment banking or what it means to work in a charity.
Because I think there is stigmas in each of those areas and specifically in private equity. I’m more than happy to speak to people who want to work in private equity-backed businesses because sometimes, I think, they get a bad rap. Actually, private equity is a good way of doing business, and for people that are competitive, it’s a really nice box frame to spend four or five years of your life actually heading towards a goal where either you win or lose. For some people that is exciting, for other people, that’s not that exciting. For me being a competitive sportsperson, at the end of a journey [where] I know whether I’ve won or lost, that’s quite satisfying for me.
Amato: For our listeners who might aspire someday to be CEOs themselves, what advice would you give them? Bruce, I guess first.
Martin: Well, based on my previous answer, Neil, obviously to have a level of curiosity, I think you need to have that level of curiosity to really understand all aspects of the business. Now you don’t have to be an expert in those aspects, but I think you need to know enough to be dangerous. Then I think the second bit of advice I would give is, I was lucky enough to take over from a really good CEO here at Tax Systems, and what I felt I was falling into early on in taking the reins was trying to be like him because he was a hero-type leader, everyone really aspired to him and really listened to him, and what I realised is actually I just need to be myself because I’m going to be different to him.
Every CEO is going to be completely different. I think knowing what type of CEO you want to be and heading in that direction step-by-step is super important. Don’t try and be a leader that you’re not, be authentically yourself. It’s another buzzword – be authentic. But I think that’s really pertinent because actually people are super smart and they can just see straight through where you’re pretending or trying to be something that you are not. For me, a level of authenticity and a level of curiosity are going to be super-important for any first-time CEOs.
Spicer: Really interesting because my CEO that I took over from was the founding chief exec at the YMCA, being with our YMCA for 20-odd years, and with the YMCA movement for more than 35 years. What Bruce said about being your own person is really quite important. When you’re stepping into big shoes that have gone before you, there is always a temptation of just carrying on along that trajectory and that pathway. I think that’s quite dangerous because I’ve always viewed my leadership opportunities as seasons. Every role that I’ve gone to, I’ve been at the organisation for a season to do a job and to leave that organisation in a better shape than that which I’ve inherited.
I see my leadership as a chief executive in exactly the same light. I’m not going to be at the YMCA until I retire. I will be there for a season. I don’t know how long that season is going to be just yet. But it’s my job to use my personality, my ingenuity, my uniqueness to leave an imprint on that charity that leaves it in better shape for the next season of its growth, for the next season of its work across Hampshire and the Isle of Wight.
I was at a concert last night. My youngest daughter was playing the violin in a concert at The Anvil in Basingstoke. One of the catchphrases that resonated with me, as Bruce was talking, I just thought there is a saying called make your own kind of music. For me, that’s the little bit of difference that I can leave. [For] a new chief exec stepping into a new role: Don’t worry about what’s gone before you, see that history as providing the bedrock of your organisation’s sort of “where they are now”. It’s part of the heritage, it’s part of the history. But make your own kind of music moving forward. If you do that, your orchestra, your symphony will be very different, but it will still sound beautiful. It’ll just be through a slightly different lens.
Curiosity is absolutely key as a chief exec and if it wasn’t for my natural nosiness, I very much doubt I would have gone along the pathways and made the choices that I’ve made. It’s just because I am a nosy parker that I will stick my beak in and want to see what’s going on. You’ve got to be brave. You’ve got to ask the questions. You’ve got to show an interest. At the end of the day, you’re going to be responsible for leading a team of people. At the YMCA, I’ve got over 450 staff that ultimately report to me through our line management structure. But unless I’m curious about what job they do, unless I’m curious about how their input fits into the jigsaw puzzle of our charity, I’m not going to be able to lead them, I’m not going to be able to move the charity forward. Having that link between your workforce and you as the leader, I think is really important.
The last point I wanted to make just really from a charity perspective is that relationship with your trustee board. So, one of the key differences about charities, although I’m the chief exec I don’t own the charity. I don’t have the legal responsibility for the charity. That all sits with our trustee board, and they are a group of volunteers. And having a good, healthy relationship with your trustees is really quite important. I think probably Bruce would say, even if you’re working in the corporate world, you’ve got to have a good relationship with your chairman. You’ve got to have a good relationship with your shareholders so that you can all move forward in the right direction. The season of your leadership as the chief exec, you leave your organisation in a better place than that which you inherited from your predecessor or in a different place. That would be my advice to a new chief exec.
Amato: That’s fantastic. I hear similar themes in each of your messages, it’s like you’re related or something. Both curious. Anyway, this has been fantastic. I don’t know that there are records kept on how many brother-sister CEO, pairs there are, but I definitely think this is unique and has been very interesting. Thank you very much, Bruce and Phillipa, for your time today.
Martin: Absolutely a pleasure, Neil. Thanks for having us.
Spicer: Thank you, Neil. It’s been great. It’s been great to explore our pathways and to share this moment together. Thank you for making it happen.
