Leadership coach and diversity, equity, and inclusion professional Sophie Turner returns to the FM podcast to explain the intricacies of imposter syndrome, ways it can manifest itself at work, and the internal and external systems that can help professionals manage self-doubt.
Turner shares individual and cultural strategies that professionals and leaders can adopt to combat negative self-talk, broaden perspectives, and lean into a people-centric approach that emphasises learning and development.
“As managers, it’s really important we embrace the learning curve and support our colleagues to do that because actually what can happen is, when we make a mistake, that feeds into our imposter syndrome,” Turner said.
What you’ll learn from this episode:
- One tip for reframing how we see ourselves.
- Five types of imposter syndrome.
- Societal and familial factors rooted in imposter syndrome.
- Techniques for improving the feedback process.
- How leaders can help shift the focus from mistakes to learning opportunities.
- Daily rituals for improving our mindset and self-concept.
Play the episode below or read the edited transcript:
— To comment on this episode or to suggest an idea for another episode, contact Steph Brown at Stephanie.Brown@aicpa-cima.com.
Transcript
Steph Brown: On this FM episode from UK & Ireland ENGAGE, I’m happy to welcome CIMA-qualified leadership coach Sophie Turner back to the podcast. I’m your host, Steph Brown. Back in August, I sat down with Sophie to discuss the psychology of imposter syndrome, and following her session on managing imposter syndrome, we will delve deeper into that topic today.
We’ll be looking more closely at the different types of imposter syndrome, tips to manage the challenges associated with imposter syndrome, and the role of leadership in helping employees grow.
Welcome back, Sophie.
It’s an important topic for many, particularly those feeling wounded by this pervasive feeling of never feeling quite good enough. Do you have any words of wisdom as someone who has experienced this for anyone listening who’s feeling a bit defeated by this constant cycle of self-doubt?
Sophie Turner: It’s a process. It’s a commitment to whenever our self-confidence or self-esteem is taking a hit, we have to commit to positive change to support that. But there is hope. We can absolutely manage our mindset or not allow — I said this in the session — not allow somebody else’s opinion to infiltrate and impact ourselves, our choices, our career, our self-worth.
In terms of what we can do, initially. There are a few things from the session. But actually, one of the biggest ones was identify what we’re good at and give ourselves credit. And that’s really important because if we go through the process regularly of acknowledging what we’re good at, giving ourselves credit, recognising what we’re proud of from a work perspective, we will then build that confidence so we can recognise, actually, do you know what? I am good at what I do because I’ve got the fact[s] and the evidence to demonstrate that. Which has a huge positive impact on that self-worth and self-confidence, definitely.
Brown: [When] we think about imposter syndrome, we kind of look at it as a general term, a general condition. But as you said in your session, there are actually five types of imposter syndrome. Can you give us a summary of what those types are and the characteristics of each?
Turner: Yeah. So, we’ve got the expert. The expert is somebody who needs to have demonstrable proof that they are good enough, whether that’s from a qualification perspective or to be the person that people come to for that knowledge: I am the repository of all information. If I don’t know something or don’t get that qualification, then that means that actually I don’t belong. My self-worth can take an impact.
We have our superhero. These are those of us that work harder, work longer to demonstrate and to prove that we belong because, actually, I’m working harder than everybody else to try and demonstrate that I belong here, that I’m good enough.
We have our perfectionist. If I make a mistake, then I mustn’t be good enough. I mustn’t be the right person for this role. When actually, listen, none of us are perfect.
We have our soloist, who won’t ask for help. Asking for help is a sign that I’m not good enough to be here, and the reality is we all need help at times.
Then we’ve got our natural genius, where it is about getting it right the first time. If I can’t pick it up quickly or I can’t learn that quickly, efficiently, or I don’t get it right first time, again I feel like actually I’m not good enough to be here.
Most of us will fit into a couple of those. Some will fit into more than others. But knowing how our imposter syndrome manifests, knowing what our default is, that self-awareness helps us to then be able to manage it. I know for me, I would veer towards that expert. I know that in the past I have needed that demonstrable proof.
What I’ve realised now is that it hasn’t made me better at what I do. It’s given me an underpinning and a theoretical element at times, but I know what I know because I know it, or there’s reading around the subject, or there is qualitative conversations and experiences that I’ve had. I don’t need those letters behind my name for me to believe that I’m good at what I do anymore.
Brown: You mentioned in our discussion in August that imposter syndrome is quite complex to navigate because it’s influenced by a lot of societal and familial factors. Can you give some examples of those factors?
Turner: It’s really difficult to talk about the nuances of privilege. The nuance of privilege is a difficult one to explain in a short space of time. But ultimately, we are living in a world with systems, institutions, structures, policies, norms that were created for and by an exceptionally small group of people, that the vast majority of us don’t fit in.
To talk very simplistically, we are essentially saying that affluent, well-connected, powerful white men created all of the norms that we live within. Because, actually, at the time, there was no level of diverse representation in the UK; women weren’t allowed the vote or any type of what we deem now to be protected characteristics, that wasn’t acceptable, historically.
So, we are living in a world that was built for and by an exceptionally small group of people that the vast majority of us don’t fit into. That is a huge impact when it comes to imposter syndrome because, essentially, everywhere we turn, we don’t belong because we are walking into buildings, we are following laws, we are being governed by people who, actually, we don’t have an affinity to. We don’t necessarily see ourselves in them.
From a society perspective, imposter syndrome is based upon, for many of us, our proximity to that privilege. As I said, privilege is a really difficult one to explain. There are nuances, and it doesn’t mean anyone’s had an easy life or anything like that. But ultimately, the fact that we don’t feel like we fit in because we live in a country that wasn’t built for us absolutely feeds into that imposter syndrome and what is normal. Who deems what looks professional? Who deems whether I’m too loud? Who deems what is normal? Who deems what is acceptable? It’s the hangover of this really small group of people who set those norms.
From a familial perspective, actually, a lot of that is born out of good faith, supportiveness; you can do anything you want to do. Actually, then, if I can’t do that, does that mean I’m good enough or not? Get your exams, go to university, study this, study that. Actually, what if I don’t want to do that, or what if I don’t quite make the grade, does that mean I’m not good enough?
There are lots of elements to it in terms of where it comes from and then how it manifests, and that is individual to all of us. But ultimately, it all comes back down to having that level of agency and having that level of self-advocacy where I’m not going to allow somebody else’s opinion of me or view of what I should be doing to dictate actually what I do or my success or my opinion of myself and how I value myself.
Brown: You touched on in your session that because of these societal moulds and norms we’re being squeezed into, that many of us don’t quite fit in. How can people manage the conflict of being forced in some ways to be an imposter for their own self-preservation, professionally?
Turner: That’s really hard because, ultimately, if our organisation isn’t ready for that level of authenticity, then we have to be exceptionally brave and exceptionally resilient. What I would say in its most simplistic form is, if our authenticity is not going to be valued, respected, acknowledged, then is that the right culture for us to be in?
There are some fantastic organisations who do look at belonging as an ethos, as an approach in terms of, we want every single person to feel comfortable to be themselves. I think it’s trying to find those organisations. I think we’re fortunate that now we have a generation of leaders who may still very well tick that white straight male box but have got brilliant families, female role models, have been to school with or live in areas where there’s high levels of ethnic diverse representation to change our perspective.
As we increase our perspective, then our leaders, even if they do tick those boxes — listen, there’s nothing wrong with ticking those boxes. But it means that we’re less likely to experience imposter syndrome, we’re more likely to be able to manage other people’s. The greater the perspective I have of others, the more I can create an environment where everybody feels like they belong. Nobody is an imposter then because everybody is here by rights. And I think that is utopia: That’s the aim.
Brown: You mentioned again today [that] receiving good feedback is crucial. How can leaders better deliver feedback that can be more constructive so it doesn’t feed into that cycle of self-doubt?
Turner: I think the most important thing when it comes to feedback, it has to be fact-based, so it needs to be data-driven feedback. If we have fact, if we have evidence, then what that means is it’s not a character assassination, it’s not someone’s opinion. I’m not going to offend someone. If my fear is to upset someone, that’s not going to happen because it’s fact.
We also have to view feedback as actually being a really useful tool for people to get better.
We almost need to reframe how we position feedback. No one wants to ask for it is the reality because, ultimately, we are uncomfortable asking for feedback in case we hear something we don’t want to hear. But if we see it from the angle of, well, if I get feedback, I’m going to be better at my job, then all of a sudden, the fear factor dissipates and goes away.
When it comes to feedback, for me, it is about data-driven feedback, evidence, and being specific. I don’t want a very broad: “You’re doing great at your job.” “You perhaps should have handled that differently.” Tell me how, tell me why. Tell me what the issue was.
Tell me what feedback or evidence you have for that opinion or for that statement, and then I can make an action. We can create a plan from that. But it starts with data-driven feedback. It starts with evidence. If I can anchor down onto evidence, if I can anchor down onto data, then actually all of my concerns, all of my uncomfortableness, all of any type of negative emotions I might have about either asking feedback or giving feedback go away because, actually, I’m basing it on fact. My self-confidence can’t take a hit if it’s fact.
Brown: Aside from feedback and improving the feedback process for employees, are there any other rituals leaders can use in engagements with teams to be more people-centric and encourage that growth further?
Turner: Yeah. I think being people-centric is actually the most important approach. We are only as good as our people are, and I think that having people at the heart of it, having their development at the heart of it, making sure that that individual feels like they belong. What do we know about this person? Trying to understand the four, five, six people I work most closely alongside. What do I know about them? What do they know about me? What are their interests? What are their values? What do we have in common? What support might that person need that the next person doesn’t? Is really important.
What I would say is, in terms of supporting those individuals, obviously, we’ve referenced feedback already, but we also need to embrace mistakes. We need to embrace the learning curve. As managers, things go wrong. Mistakes happen. As managers, it’s really important we embrace the learning curve and support our colleagues to do that.
Because, actually, what can happen is when we make a mistake, that feeds into our imposter syndrome. “Well, I’ve made a mistake. Obviously, I’m not good enough. Obviously, I don’t belong. Obviously, I’m going to get found out.” How we manage that and how we manage that conversation. “Yes, you’ve made a mistake,” or “This has happened. What are we going to do about it? What have you learned from it?” And position it as a learning as opposed to a mistake.
Because, ultimately, that is all a mistake is. A mistake is an opportunity to learn something new. But again, that’s a reframe, that’s a mindset, that’s a perspective. If we as leaders give appropriate data-driven feedback, but also when mistakes do happen, that is not about feeding into someone’s fear of not being good enough, it’s about right, “What have we learned from it? There we go, let’s move on then.” And take the positivity from mistakes as opposed to, I’m going to lose my job because I’m rubbish at it.
Brown: That’s an interesting thought because, as you said in your session, we can sometimes get quite consumed by what we consider failures. How can we stop becoming consumed by our accomplishments, achievements, and our failures?
Turner: I think it’s the acknowledgment and awareness of what we’re good at and what we need to develop. The greater self-awareness we have, the less we will either tip into imposter syndrome and lack of self-worth, etc. Equally, we will not tip over into I’m perfect. I’m great. Look at me; look how fantastic I am. I think having that self-awareness to know what I’m good at, to know what I need to work on protects me then because it gives me that level of realism.
Going through a process of giving yourself credit: What are we good at? Is really important, and ultimately, our brain will always look to keep us safe. We will remember the negative experiences disproportionately than we do any positive experiences. That’s just neuroscience; going back to fight or flight. Hundreds of years, more than of our brain in survival. What we have to do is we do have to have an emphasis on the strengths, on what we’re good at because chemically, naturally, biologically, our brain will hold on to the negatives more.
But that level of awareness, that self-awareness, is where the power and the control comes from.
Brown: For professionals that are struggling, what kind of daily actions can they incorporate into their routine to help them develop more confidence in themselves?
Turner: I think if we’re looking at it from an individual perspective, I think positive affirmations are really important, to use your phrase, “as a daily ritual”. I think working out what negative messaging we tell ourselves. I use the example in the session about no one ever listens to me. Actually, my positive affirmation was: “Today, I’m going to make my voice heard.” Those daily affirmations, which basically retrain our brain rather than thinking to the negative. It’s about ownership. I can’t guarantee everyone’s going to listen to me, but what I can do is make sure my voice will be heard. I’m advocating for myself. I’m taking ownership.
I think from a cultural perspective, in terms of creating an environment of belonging. I think a lot of that is an education piece. A lot of that is raising awareness, sharing, being vulnerable, being curious to try and appreciate different perspectives and different experiences because I will only ever see the world through my eyes. The wider the perspectives I can get, the more I can see the world from different people’s perspectives. Actually, the greater chance of me being able to create an environment and a culture where I’m not being exclusive or I’m being actively and consciously inclusive to create a sense of belonging.
There are two strands to it, really. From an individual perspective, it’s about positive self-talk and affirmations. From a cultural perspective, it is about taking ownership of our learning, of our education, trying to appreciate different perspectives, different life experiences, to try and just take the blinkers off to see more of the world.
Brown: Back in our conversation in August, you explained that imposter syndrome, while more common among marginalised communities, can actually happen to anybody, including leaders. You said that 71% of CEOs have struggled with imposter syndrome.
For people in that position, how can they use the struggles that they’ve experienced to create a positive change in their organisations?
Turner: One is acknowledging that I’ve experienced it. Normalising it is talking about it. And then it is looking to recognise that talent looks different; who the best person for the job is may not always be the traditional best person for the job, or the historically best person for the job. I think it’s about challenging ourselves of what biases we all have as leaders which may be holding someone back without us realising. Creating a culture of feedback. Creating a culture of learning.
There are things that we can do where we celebrate someone every Friday. I know organisations that share their wins, and we engineer people sharing positivity and sharing what they’re proud of at work or what they’ve achieved this week or within the last month, to demonstrate and help people understand and facilitate people realising that, actually, I’m here because I’m good enough.
Some of our leadership is about supporting someone with their self-confidence. Proactively, I can give good feedback. I can give quality feedback. But actually, also it is about what can I do, specifically, to help people get into that habit. Whether it’s affirmations. Whether it is giving ourselves credit. Whether it is power poses. Just mixing stuff up from what is sort of quote-unquote normal behaviour.
It’s the lunch and learns, it’s the walk and talks. It’s the different approaches and moving away from what has been the traditional view of working in an office or working in finance and just do it differently. Because the more things we do differently, the more appealing it will be to others. The more people will feel like they belong.
Brown: A lot of good advice for people in all sorts of different positions across organisations. In closing, do you have any thoughts that you’d like to leave listeners with?
Turner: We are in control of our own destiny. We are certainly in control of how we feel about ourselves, and I think we need to be kind to ourselves. I think we will always be kinder to others than we are to ourselves. What would we say to a friend as a mantra?
If you wouldn’t say it to a friend, then don’t say it to yourself. Don’t fear imposter syndrome. Acknowledge it, understand it, and then take actions to ensure that it doesn’t hold you back because it shouldn’t do. We all have the ability and the power to overcome imposter syndrome, but it starts with us.
Brown: Thank you, Sophie. Thank you so much for being on the podcast again.
Turner: You are very welcome.
